FOR THE RECORD
RFE/RL releases transcripts of interviews with Melnychenko
RFE/RL Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine Report
On December 29, 2000, and January 9, RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service broadcast live interviews with Mykola Melnychenko, a major in the reserve of the Ukrainian Security Service and a former presidential bodyguard, who provoked a political scandal in Ukraine by publicizing the tapes that allegedly show President Leonid Kuchma's complicity in the disappearance of independent journalist Heorhii Gongadze.
On both occasions, Mr. Melnychenko contacted the Prague-based studio of RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service of his own choice and spoke by telephone on the live program called "Vechirnia Svoboda" (Evening Radio Liberty).
Following are excerpts of the interviews with Mr. Melnychenko translated from the transcriptions that were published in the Internet newsletter Ukrainska Pravda (http://www.pravda.com.ua) and on the RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service Internet site (http://www.rferl.org/bd/uk/ukrainian/).
PART I: DECEMBER INTERVIEW
Q: You said a lot during your meeting with the deputies. What would you like to add about the main issues?
A: If this information [ed. note: taped secretly by Melnychenko in Kuchma's office] had not been publicized, in six months' time one would have to give up for lost democracy [as well as] human freedoms and rights in Ukraine. There were plans in the president's entourage to destroy Ukraine's Supreme Court and other bodies that did not comply with the president's wishes and whims.
Q: What do you mean by "destroying the Supreme Court"? Execution by shooting?
A: The Verkhovna Rada had to pass a law following the president's instruction to make the Supreme Court [ed. note: Melnychenko does not finish this phrase.] You see, the Supreme Court was standing in the president's way because it was not controlled by him. It was performing the duties it had to. And the president gave instructions to work out a law that would allow him to control courts as well. And he said it was necessary to get rid of Boyko, chairman of the court.
Q: Mr. Melnychenko, now, under such extreme conditions, you are living day-to-day, but it is also necessary to think about the future. Tell us, please, how do you see your future - both near and far?
A: As to my near future, I am coming back to Ukraine under any circumstances. I think this will happen very soon even if I'm sure that power structures will do everything possible to prevent me from coming back alive. And I'm sure that the people of Ukraine will overcome this evil and will come out of this situation with dignity.
Q: A version appeared in some circles in Ukraine that Yevhen Marchuk is involved in all this [tape scandal]. Can you deny this?
A: I want to tell you that Mr. Kyrylovych [Marchuk] is one of the, or more properly, his organization is the most decent among those in Ukraine. I mean the National Security and Defense Council.
Q: People are assessing your deed ambiguously. Some consider you a brave man, a hero, and think you can be a model for many people. Other people - and there are a lot of them - consider you literally a traitor, not only to the president to whom you did not swear an oath. They think you betrayed an officer's honor and even that of Ukraine because you have provoked a scandal that does not contribute to Ukraine's prestige. How can you respond to those people?
A: I am considered to be a traitor by those people who are involved in crimes. I have in mind many power ministers, governors and the president's entourage. I "betrayed" because I know where the people's money was transferred - billions of dollars. I betrayed the president's interests while he was laundering [money], giving instructions how to build his dachas for 4 million, for 7 million. I betrayed [his] interests.
But there are also the interests of the people who work in factories and plants that the president ordered shut down only because of his political ambitions. For instance, there is an oil refinery in Kherson, and the Interagro firm in Kharkiv. The president of Ukraine, for example, calls [State Tax Administration head Mykola] Azarov and says: stifle him because he works not for us but for another person. The stifling begins, jobs are destroyed, taxes not paid.
So, whom did I betray?
Q: [Journalists speculate] that there are some oligarchs behind this affair who want to discredit Leonid Kuchma in order to take all the power in their hands in a way that could appear legal at first sight. The names of [oligarch and lawmaker Hryhorii] Surkis and [Verkhovna Rada, Vice-Chairman Viktor] Medvedchuk are mentioned. What can you say in this regard?
A: This is absurd. The idea that Surkis and Medvedchuk could give an instruction [to secretly tape Kuchma] is absurd. As far as I know, both Messrs. Surkis and Medvedchuk are not interested in Kuchma's exit.
Q: You say that there are other officers like you in the power structures. Let us assume that this story will lead nowhere. What further actions can be taken by the people who share your views?
A: In any case, democracy will win. The president will no longer be able to order the closure of, for instance, Silski Visti, the Polityka i Kultura magazine, Grani, or Zerkalo Nedeli ... And I'm convinced that those sums that were stolen - I can show from where they were taken and to whom and for what purpose they were transferred - should return to Ukraine, at least part of them.
Q: Do you have any information about the accounts into which some Ukrainian citizens deposit their money?
A: I won't answer this question. I can only say that I have information about many millions that were illegally taken from some firms, and that the president of Ukraine knows about that. Incidentally, [that was done] on his instruction.
Q: Is this documented in some way?
A: This is on microcassettes, on chips. And there is also information that the illegal business is being continued. I can say that Kuchma is very afraid that some facts connected with [former Prime Pavlo] Lazarenko may be revealed.
Q: Can you tell us which facts?
A: There are facts. Procurator General [Mykhailo] Potebenko can tell you about them in a more detailed manner. There was a conversation between Messrs. Potebenko and Kuchma. Mr. Potebenko took fright when there was a large probability that Lazarenko could be extradited to Ukraine [from the U.S.]. You can ask him [Potebenko]. [I know] the day and hour when he spoke about this. These facts are documented, as well as other facts regarding [Prime Viktor] Yuschenko, Kostenko and the eavesdropping on Marchuk, there is everything.
Q: What specifically about Mr. Yuschenko? Can you tell us now?
A: I can. The president gave an instruction - I quote literally - to destroy Yuschenko. This was said on March 30 to one of the oblast chairmen. Following this, they [the oblast chairmen] were to prepare letters that they are dissatisfied with Yuschenko's work. And there was also an instruction to a number of ministers to write a statement that they are not able to work in such conditions.
Q: Do you think that to destroy Yuschenko meant to organize an attack on him, to sack him, or to literally destroy the man?
A: I only quote the president's words that I documented, and he gives an instruction: "I'll destroy Yuschenko." [Ed. note: phrase in quotation marks is in Russian.]
Q: Did he say that in Russian?
A: One time in Russian. And the second time he said "znyschyty" [Ukrainian: to destroy].
Q: What could you respond to Mr. Bezsmertnyi [Kuchma's official representative in the Parliament] who says that he knows well the sofa under which your dictaphone was planted, [adding that] it's impossible to place or hide anything under [that sofa]?
A: If Mr. Bezsmertnyi agrees to broadcasting his conversations with expletives on Radio Liberty, [I'll release] one conversation where he says that it is necessary to drive [former Rada chairman Oleksander] Tkachenko out of the Parliament. The dictaphone was where I said it was - under the sofa.
Q: When you applied for that job, did you think that everything was clean there? Those were the corridors of power. You surely knew that there might be various developments, didn't you? Why did you go to work there at all?
A: A rhetorical question. Why did I go and what have I learned? You know, I accompanied a businessman on his way to the president, he was carrying a gift for the president worth $5 million. I can't tell you his name. I can only say that it was related to Zhytomyr. To pay wage and pension arrears, one needs some 5 or 6 million hrv [ed. note: not specified to what economic sector or category of employees], while the president receives a gift worth $5 million - Scythian gold. And that businessman says: yes, I have [already] given gifts worth $3 million, that was small change ...
Q: How much attention did the president pay to Heorhii Gongadze?
A: This incident [with Gongadze] ultimately exhausted my patience. I can't say the president attached great importance to Heorhii, but he paid attention [to him] more than once. Those journalists who praise the president around the clock are automatically included in his favorites. But Kuchma, in my opinion, is not a courageous man. He fears journalists who criticize him. His favorites are given financial support. As for the newspaper Den, which remained hostile to him during the [presidential election] campaign, he ordered more than once to halt the subscription for it. Horror! He personally fights against people. Not only against journalists, I can mention dozens of people who, following Kuchma's instruction, were fired from the army, the Security Service of Ukraine, the Procurator General's Office ...
PART I
Copyright © The Ukrainian Weekly, February 4, 2001, No. 5, Vol. LXIX
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