INTERVIEW: AJC's David Roth on CBS portrayal of anti-Semitism in Ukraine (10/30/94)

INTERVIEW: AJC's David Roth on CBS portrayal of anti-Semitism in Ukraine

by Andrij Wynnyckyj

The following is an interview with David Roth, director of the American Jewish Committee's Chicago-based Institute for American Pluralism. In July-August, Mr. Roth organized and led a joint Jewish-Ukrainian expedition to Ukraine, which constituted phase two of an effort known as "Project Ukraine." The interview was conducted on October 26.

What is your reaction, as a representative of the American Jewish Committee (AJC), to the program "The Ugly Face of Freedom," aired as a segment of CBS's "60 Minutes" on October 23?

The AJC is profoundly concerned with the portrait of anti-Semitism in Ukraine. We take seriously charges of anti-Semitism that are brought anywhere. We do this in this country [the U.S.] and we do it throughout the world.

By taking the charges seriously, I mean to say that we must speak to the many contacts we have among Jewish leadership in Ukraine, and to address them on an up-to-date basis. For us, "seriously" means "looking into it" and also, very centrally, "with great respect for their leadership as Jews in a new, free and democratic society."

This is precisely the reason why the AJC has been making, for several years now, a simultaneous two-tiered effort on this issue. First of all, we have been deepening relations with the Ukrainian community through our various chapters here in the U.S., and increasing our presence in Ukraine itself - by mounting "Project Ukraine."

We are in Ukraine for several reasons. First, we want to strengthen the ability of the local Jewish leadership to battle anti-Semitism. These are skills that Jews have developed in the West. Under communism, it was impossible for the local Jewish community to do anything like this, other than to do something underground or to get out. That is not the case today.

We are working with local Jewish leadership in Ukraine to strengthen their ability to deal with the government, to position themselves honorably as culturally distinct citizens of the land, and to battle anti-Semitism.

Secondly, we're in Ukraine to work with friends of [the Jewish] community, leaders of other national minority and religious groups who care about the place of Jews in Ukraine, and who understand the tragic history, who are prepared to deal honestly and frankly with these issues.

One of our goals in working with [these leaders] is to give them a better understanding of the concerns of the Jewish community, to stand by it when necessary, and to underscore, to the society and to the world at large, that Jewish Ukrainians are a people of the Ukrainian land, entitled to the rights that are extended to all Ukrainians.

The third reason we're in Ukraine is to encourage the government to enforce some of the most extraordinary laws protecting national minorities in Eastern Europe. This is a part of the world that is full of tension.

Ukraine is a land portrayed in general as suffering severe economic stress. It is rather slow to go through some political transformations. It is our goal to help Ukraine cope with tensions that flow from these problems, because it will strengthen their democracy and their ability to protect the country's minorities, including the Jewish community.

So we are in Ukraine because we take seriously the challenge of helping Ukrainian Jewry achieve a more secure place in Ukrainian life.

You are someone who has gone to Ukraine, and now is faced, in this CBS report, with a portrait that is drawn in a particular light, of a society that contains deplorable manifestations of bigotry, such as that symbolized by the march of the UNA/UNSO cadres, and such as the statements of the newspaper editor who appears in the show.

What is your reaction, as someone who has visited the land depicted? What is your reaction to the tenor of the show?

In that show, there were several charges brought by members of the Jewish leadership in Ukraine with which I am not familiar. Before I make any comment about the show as a whole, I want to consult with Ukrainian Jewish leadership to get their view of the show as well. I think that's critically important.

The charges in and of themselves are not necessarily a difficulty. When these manifestations of anti-Semitism appear, charges need to be made in accordance with the "extraordinary legislation," as you put it, to confront and deal with them. The problem is that the program goes beyond the testimony or charges provided by the Jewish leaders.

The "going beyond" is in part what has become a problem for our communities jointly. That is, the charges of anti-Semitism are so serious and so extensive that they create a problem and a challenge for each of us.

One problem is that the current president has not been as forthcoming, to the best of my knowledge with Jewish leaders in Ukraine, Jewish leaders outside of Ukraine. This might be in the works.

It is extremely important for the government of Ukraine to take this as a serious issue, and to take seriously some of the charges made in the show. That would go a long way to demonstrate that the intent of this government is to maintain the policy of the previous administration. President Leonid Kravchuk visited Israel, addressed the Israeli parliament, and met with World Jewish Congress leaders.

I would hope that Leonid Kuchma would be willing to attend a meeting with Jewish community leaders here in the U.S., hosted by the AJC, and separately with Jewish and Ukrainian community leaders who are participating in "Project Ukraine."

The AJC "Project Ukraine" group that traveled to Ukraine this summer met with the new minister for nationalities and migration, Mykola Shulha, so there have been assurances that the policies of the predecessor Oleksander Yemets would be continued...

True. He did make abundantly clear that he shares our concerns. Another hopeful sign is that the new minister of foreign affairs, Gennadiy Udovenko, is a man with a clear track record.

It would be very helpful if a series of clear statements were issued by this government on anti-Semitism and the place of the Jewish community and other minorities in Ukraine. And I imagine that this would not be at all difficult for the government to do, it would simply be a matter of restating policy and doing what has been done before. It would also be very useful in relations between Ukrainians and Jews in the U.S. as well.

Particularly in light of the "60 Minutes" program?

That's right, because the program has levelled charges that force Jews and others concerned with their welfare (which I'm sure, includes Ukrainian Americans), to stop and wonder.

I know that charges of anti-Semitism, which we take very seriously, are also troubling for our Ukrainian American friends. I would hope that such charges would be troubling to the point where they, the leadership of the Ukrainian American community, came out with a statement condemning anti-Semitism and insisting that the government of democratic Ukraine enforce its laws against the preaching of hatred against any national minority. That would be very compelling for us.

This would also be consistent with what I think is an area of broad agreement between the two communities.

Do you believe that a dialogue on the subject is possible?

In fact it would be important in the coming weeks for the participants in this summer's "Ukrainian Seminar" [as this phase of "Project Ukraine" was known] to meet and discuss their pain and their other feelings concerning this show, and the issues that it raises, and issue a statement. This group benefitted from a unique set of experiences, and therefore has a unique understanding of Ukraine and the Jewish community there.

I think both communities would be doing a disservice to both their relationship and the road we have traveled together in various societies, particularly in Ukraine, if we did not find a way to talk to one another about the charges in the show, and the problems the show creates.

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