INTERVIEW: Iosef Zissels on rebirth of Jewish life in Ukraine (12/11/94)

INTERVIEW: Iosef Zissels on rebirth of Jewish life in Ukraine

by Roma Hadzewycz

Iosef Zissels, president of the Association of Jewish Organizations and Communities of Ukraine, a nationwide umbrella group based in Kyyiv, arrived in the United States in November on the eve of President Leonid Kuchma's state visit to this country. The Embassy of Ukraine in Israel had asked him to take on a special mission: to help prepare meetings between President Kuchma and leaders of Jewish American organizations.

Mr. Zissels, a native of Chernivtsi, is no doubt known to readers of The Ukrainian Weekly, as he was an active participant in the human rights movement in Ukraine. He was a member of the Ukrainian Helsinki Group and served sentences for his "anti-Soviet" activity. He was a founding member of Rukh was one of the organizers of its Nationalities Council and was a member of Rukh's Political Council, where he represented the interests of Jews in Ukraine.

Mr. Zissels took time out, from his busy schedule during his brief stay in the U.S. for a telephone interview with The Weekly on November 22.

What can you tell us about President Kuchma's New York meeting with the Jewish leadership? What were the topics discussed, what was the atmosphere like?

There was a limited amount of space in the Consulate General of Ukraine, so the number of persons invited was limited. The meeting was composed of two parts: first, there was a larger meeting with 40 to 50 people, representatives of various Jewish organizations of America, and the president appeared before them with a speech. He underlined that the Ukrainian and Jewish nations lived alongside each other during the course of many centuries and, though there were some dark pages in their history, there was more cooperation, more friendship and more mutual assistance. And, it is not necessary to look at these dark pages of the past, but we must continue to cooperate, he said.

He underlined the role of the Jews in Ukraine in creating the culture of this state, its industry, scholarship, etc., and he said it is very sad to see how right now, due to the difficult socio-economic situation in Ukraine, many Jews are leaving for Israel, America and other countries. He added that it would be good if, together with Ukrainians and representatives of other nationalities who live in Ukraine, Jews would stay and would work. He added that everything will be done to create conditions that enable them to develop their national cultures. This is approximately what he stated.

Then there was a smaller meeting with the leaders of the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations at which the head of the organization introduced all present at this meeting to President Kuchma. Then each one of them said a few words of greetings to the president.

I would like to single out the presentation of the head of the American-Jewish Distribution Committee. This committee functions in Ukraine and provides significant assistance to help us rebuild Jewish society in Ukraine; it helps the aged and the infirmed, it promotes the rebirth of Jewish education in Ukraine. Also speaking was the American representative of the Jewish organization Sokhnut, who thanked the president for finally acting on the matter of Jewish minors from Ukraine in Israel. Permission was given for their education in Israel.

You understand that no serious or concrete matters are decided at such gatherings. We expect there will be subsequent meetings and that they will be more action-oriented.

Are such meetings already planned, or its there Just a general agreement that such meetings will continue into the future?

There is a general desire to continue meeting and talking. Representatives of Jewish organizations often travel to Ukraine, and I think these meetings will continue with more concrete discussions.

Did anybody raise the issue of the controversial CBS broadcast on "60 Minutes"?

No one specifically raised this issue, but the president said in his speech that it is known there were Ukrainians who collaborated with the Nazis during the second world war, but that they were punished during the war and after the war for their crimes. He said he is against such a black-and-white picture of the world, against collective responsibility, whereby an entire nation is accused of some crime. He underlined that crimes are concrete and they must be punished, but one cannot judge a whole nation and say that the entire nation is criminal.

This was not stated specifically in regard to the allegations aired by CBS but I think it was understood by those who were aware of this matter to be a reference to that. The president also said Ukraine monitors the activity of several radical groups in Ukraine, which allow themselves to engage in anti-Semitic speech. They are small, we monitor them, and we will never allow neo-Nazism or fascism to exist in our state.

Did he name such groups?

No, he did not.

Would you include UNA/UNSO among those groups?

I find it difficult to answer that because I do not have any published materials on hand. We monitor manifestations of anti-Semitism in Ukraine, and we are aware that some newspapers print anti-Semitic materials. Not one party or group, however, declares anti-Semitism as its policy, as part of its program.

Some publications, for example Za Vilnu Ukrainu (For a Free Ukraine), for example, Neskorena Natsiya (Undefeated Nation), devote entire pages to anti-Semitic materials. In the Poltava Oblast the newspaper Khliborob (Farmer) publishes almost exclusively anti-Semitic materials. There is also Nova Ukraina (New Ukraine), a youth paper published in Kharkiv.

I think there are five, six or seven such newspapers in all of Ukraine. In comparison with all the press of Ukraine, this is one-one thousandth of the total.

I would include among the groups that allow anti-Semitic manifestations the groups Derzhavna Samostiynist Ukrainy (Independent Statehood for Ukraine) and Tovarystvo Idealistic (Society of Idealists) of Lviv. I don't know of many manifestations of anti-Semitism on the part of UNA/UNSO. If there were some isolated incidents, for example [Oleh] Vitovych [the group's leader] might have said something sometime, but this is much less frequent than DSU or Tovarystvo Idealistic.

I cannot concretely answer [the question], but one can see in publications and in speeches who allows this more and who engages in this less. I would like to underline that these groups that do allow themselves to do this [to express anti-Semitism] are very small; they do not have great political of social influence in Ukraine. They are supported by a very narrow segment of the population - very narrow. And I do not think that much attention has to be focused on this. These groups truly are monitored by the government, and we are aware of their activity. That is not where the problem lies.

Were you with President Kuchma at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum?

Yes, I was in Washington yesterday at the Holocaust Museum and at the [Ukrainian] Embassy reception. The visit to the Holocaust Museum was included in the official program of the president.

What can you tell us about President Kuchma's appearance there? How was he received?

He has received very well at the Holocaust Museum He was met by the directors of the museum, and first they showed him the exhibits and told him about the museum, where the exhibit items were collected, etc. I would like to say right from the start that there was no accent, when the museum's representatives spoke, on the participation of Ukrainians in the destruction [during the Holocaust]. They spent some time near the exhibit about Babyn Yar, but there was no focus on this.

Afterwards, there was this ceremonial gathering at which the president presented to the museum a capsule of earth from Babyn Yar and, even more importantly, a list of the Righteous of Ukraine - that is, those Ukrainians who rescued Jews during the second world war from the fascists. And the appearance of the president of Ukraine at the museum was focused on the following: that he is experiencing a moment of sorrow as the museum reminded him of the world war period when the Nazis destroyed millions of innocent people.

He underlined that the victims were European Jewry, including 600,000 Jews in Ukraine. He underlined the universal significance of the Holocaust. He said that among the criminals there were Ukrainians - degenerates not worthy of the name "Ukrainian" - but that these were individuals, and that they were severely punished. He also said that even in the darkness of the Holocaust one could find the rays of brilliant hope; he was speaking of those who were not frightened by the terror of the occupying forces. And he mentioned those who defended the nation's honor and dignity, who extended a hand of assistance to Jews at this terrible hour of evil.

The president said he is proud of the fact that among them were hundreds of Ukrainians, and he presented a list of the Righteous whose names are listed in Jerusalem at Yad Vashem and in whose honor trees of peace are planted at the memorial. In conclusion he said it was those Righteous of the World who rescued Jews who epitomize the Ukrainian nation and its best traits - goodness, humanity, courage and endurance.

He also recalled, and this is very important, that Ukraine lost millions of its sons and daughters, that millions of courageous men fought against German Nazism on the battlefronts of the world war, and that they brought liberation not only to their own nation but liberated those suffering, especially in Auschwitz, 50 years ago. He concluded by thanking the creators of the museum and noting that this museum should serve to ensure that fascism will never return.

His speech was well received by the many people who heard it. It was dignified and serious, and I think it appropriately described the position of Ukraine. It did not exaggerate, it did not underestimate. There was not much ideology in it, as was the case, for example, in the speeches of the previous president. President Kuchma presented a serious, well-thought-out position.

So you evaluate his speech very positively.

Yes, yes.

The Weekly interviewed you in early 1992. Since that time, how has the life of Jews in Ukraine changed?

Right now in Ukraine, legislation has created very good conditions for the development of culture and national minorities - especially the Jewish minority. Ukraine finds itself in such a critical socio-economic situation that it cannot help in any concrete way. But it has created conditions for this, nor does it hamper such development. National minorities who want to develop their national cultures and learn their languages have the opportunity to do this, if they can do this within their own societies. Specialists are needed; money is needed.

And I don't think that right now we can demand that the state give all the money required for the development of national cultures. I think that Ukraine faces greater tasks right now - and more serious ones. Perhaps, with time, it will be able to do this, but today we must understand that we ourselves must search for opportunities for national development. I know this is done. The Germans do this, the Poles do this, and especially the Jews.

During the past three years, since independence, we have traveled a long road toward the rebirth of our national culture in Ukraine. Today in Ukraine there are 150 Jewish societies, societies of Jewish culture; nearly 70 religious societies; some synagogues have been returned. It is a fact that there is no money to rebuild them, but that is another matter. We are looking for support and finding it in the Jewish world, and we are rebuilding. In Ukraine there are about 75 functioning Jewish schools, 13 full-time state-supported schools and more than 60 Sunday schools, where children and adults learn their language, their traditions and the history of the Jewish people. Of course, Israel provides support; Jewish societies in other countries help us, especially those in the U.S. They help us obtain books, and provide specialists and teachers, but we do a lot on our own to make this possible.

We are developing our own system of social assistant just-like the Christians are doing, to help the old, the infirmed, invalids. And we work with Christians in such endeavors; we help each other.

We are now involved in many research projects, since the archives have been opened, so we have a group of specialists that works in the archives which were closed until recently. They are uncovering the Jewish culture that once existed in Ukraine.

We are developing youth programs. During the summer we conduct camps where the children can get a bit of Jewish education and tradition. May God grant that it not be worse than it is right now. So much remains to be done because we lost so much during the second world war, the Holocaust, and during the Stalinist destruction of Jewish culture. So much harm was done and it is very difficult to revive this. But, little by little, we are doing this.

We have a Center of Jewish Education in Kyyiv. There is no such center in any other former Soviet republic - not in Russia, nor Belarus, nor Moldova. Ukraine is the first to have created such a center, which is a nationwide entity. In Ukraine there were appropriate conditions, that is, laws - there is a law on the national minorities; second, there is our activity; and there is a positive attitude, sometimes bureaucratic, but still, a positive attitude on the part of various ministries toward such activity.

Together with Ukraine's Ministry of Education and its institutes, we created this Center of Jewish Education. Right now it is working very hard and very successfully to raise the qualifications of teachers of Jewish schools.

You keep saying we are doing this and that? Who is doing all this work, is it a particular entity?

I am speaking in general about Jews of Ukraine. There are many Jewish organizations and each is doing something in this regard. I am president of one of these organizations, the strongest and most powerful [Association of Jewish Organizations and Communities], but it is not the only one that is doing all this. There are religious groups, there is the Society of Jewish Culture, and they too are doing work.

You mentioned emigration. Are many Jews still leaving Ukraine and emigrating to Israel, or has this movement abated?

For about the third year now, some 13,000 to 14,000 persons, Jews and their families, are emigrating to Israel. I think this year the numbers will be comparable, maybe about 15,000. This figure appears to have stabilized. The numbers are smaller than they were in 1990 and 1991, but this is a relatively large number - it is approximately 3 percent of the Jewish population. Almost as many leave for America and other countries.

In 1990, a very large number left - 59,115. In 1991 - 39,525 left for Israel; in 1992 - 13,517; in 1993 - 13,566. So emigration has decreased to one-third or one-fourth of what it was.

But what I would like to note is that there are no barriers to emigration. The state is fulfilling its obligations in implementing the provisions of various agreements regarding human rights. We know of almost no instances when someone is prevented from leaving.

What is the reason for this emigration?

I think it is, first of all, a socio-economic reason, socio-economic instability, political instability, the people's uncertainly regarding what tomorrow will bring. But this is mostly due to socio-economic problems. And I think anti-Semitism today is not a factor in this emigration. Almost no one cites anti-Semitism as the reason for leaving Ukraine.

In what forms does anti-Semitism today exist in Ukraine?

I will try to address that question.

First of all, there is no state-sponsored anti-Semitism, like that which existed before Ukraine established itself as an independent state. Previously it was planted by the Central Committee of the Communist Party from Moscow.

There is no administrative anti-Semitism. We know of almost no incidents in Ukraine that some Jew is not accepted to an institution of higher education, or denied a job because of his Jewish identity. We do not see such instances; perhaps they exist, but we do not know of them.

There is everyday, common anti-Semitism - but not as much as before. It is not so simple to eradicate, because it depends on the culture of the people and this does not change that quickly. It has decreased because there was a sociopolitical explosion in Ukraine, people began to take an interest in their state, in their past, in their history. I am speaking about Ukrainians. The majority has a positive national attitude.

It is only a very few small groups that engage in some expression of anti-Semitism. I think this common anti-Semitism is expressed in the ideology of these small groups and on occasions it is expressed on the pages of certain newspapers. In comparison with other problems though, this is not a large problem.

I think it is very important for Ukraine's intelligentsia and Ukrainian democratic thought - that is, Ukrainian centrist political forces, democratic forces - to counter such expressions of anti-Semitism. Of course, we monitor this, but Jews should not fight against anti-Semitism because this may cause inter-ethnic conflict - something we want very much to avoid.

We have an understanding and cooperation with the majority of Ukrainians, the majority of democratic forces; we know each other very well. And that is why I think that if, from the democratic center, there was more reaction to expressions of anti-Semitism in Ukraine, it would be better. This is a problem faced by the entire country, not just a Jewish problem.

If one were to compare the situation in Ukraine with other republics, it appears it is much better in Ukraine. Rabbi Yaakov Bleich, chief rabbi of Ukraine, says that is what he always emphasizes in speaking about Ukraine, regardless of his audience. Is that correct?

Yes, the development of Jewish life is strongest in Ukraine. And yes, Rabbi Bleich, who also was with us yesterday at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, does underline this. He himself is doing a lot for the rebirth of Jewish life in Ukraine - religious life and education.

It is very unfortunate that his name has become associated with that CBS program. He is very perturbed by this and he has written protests indicating that he was used in a despicable manner.

I myself did not see the broadcast, but I read the transcript. I have it with me, as a matter of fact. And I see how terribly this was done.

I wanted to ask you about this. The text of the broadcast alone does not convey the full impact of that show, titled "The Ugly Face of Freedom."

I can imagine the possibilities of television. I myself once worked in TV, so I know what can be done. But I, along with Rabbi Bleich, and even without him, state that this was most improperly and maliciously done. The generalizations it makes are incorrect - they are, quite simply, offensive to Ukraine and Ukrainians.

I don't know if we can do anything to counter people who prepare such broadcasts and against such powerful networks like CBS. I think that maybe we don't have to fight against them, but we have to reaffirm the positive image of Ukraine and work on this.

We do very much want Ukraine to become a truly independent and democratic state, free and powerful, and we are doing everything possible to ensure this. To present a broadcast like this at this critical time, and to air it right before the state visit of President Kuchma, it seems as if someone did this purposely to present a negative image of Ukraine. But I think that [if this was the purpose] it did not succeed because Kuchma was received very well. And the main thing is, not that CBS aired that segment, but what Ukraine really is doing: that Ukraine ratified the NPT, that the president has presented his program of economic reform, a serious project, albeit difficult to realize, but a very serious project. This is the first time since Ukraine's independence that such a proposal for economic reform has been presented. And I think that is what is most important for Ukraine - not what is depicted by such media.

I think we can do much more via true public relations to present an image of Ukraine, and I would like to help in this endeavor. I am ready to give interviews to the news media, to make appearances, because I see how unfairly this broadcast depicted Ukraine. We must build instead of fight. We have to build something together for the sake of Ukraine's image. And I will gladly take part in this. It should be an ongoing, daily task to stress the positive image of Ukraine.

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