FOR THE RECORD: CBS transcript (02/19/95)

FOR THE RECORD: CBS transcript

The following are excerpted portions of the unedited transcript of an interview that Morley Safer, a reporter for the CBS news program "60 Minutes," held with the chief rabbi of Ukraine, Yaakov Dov Bleich. Edited versions of the interview were used now infamous "60 Minutes" segment "The Ugly Face of Freedom."

The segments of the interview found below have been included in documents filed with the Federal Communications Commission in a legal action brought by a Ukrainian American questioning the intentions behind the broadcast of the piece. The dialogue shows that Rabbi Bleich went out of his way to explain to Mr. Safer that anti-Semitism is not practiced at official levels and is not prevalent in Ukraine. The interview was conducted in early 1994 in Kyyiv, prior to presidential elections.

The broadcast of the piece also spurred the filing of a personal attack complaint against CBS. (Grammatical errors and misspellings, including President Leonid Kravchuk's surname, which is spelled "Kerchuk" in the document, were kept unchanged.)

Within this Ukrainian nationalist movement, there seems to be an awful lot of hatred, an awful lot of blame for Jews.

I would say there's, I don't like, you're using very strong terms, hatred and blame. I would say there's a lot of negativism, a lot of negative feeling, which has not all come out yet. And a lot of it is directed, I would say toward Jews and Russians. This hatred, as you call it, or blame so far has really not surfaced anywhere seriously. It's only on the, your know, whether it's at a demonstration, some signs that are hung up, not that serious press, newspapers that nobody ...

Do many want to leave?

Are you talking about Jews?

Yes.

Well, actually, do many Jews want to leave.

Do many Jews want to leave? I would say, yes, probably so. Many Jews want to leave. The question, the way I see it, it's a question of time. In other words, who is going to beat who? Will the Ukrainian government, which has really, to give them the credit due, gone a far way to make all national minorities feel comfortable here, will they be able to make the Jews really feel comfortable here, living as Jews? Or, as we have heard sometimes said, that they want the Jews to feel better here than they do in Israel.

If they will ever, you know, really reach that point when the Jews will feel comfortable here. Living as Jews? Or will the, let's say, the nationalists, the negative nationalists or the rightists, will they first make the Jews feel so uncomfortable that they will leave? That's the question here. You know, who will beat who?

Could it be that is the point of these, these articles, these characters in the press, in fact, to scare people into immigrating?

Yeah. Well, that's not a secret. They're saying that. They want the Jews out. They want the Jews out, and they want the Russians out. And they want everybody else out that not an ethnic Ukrainian.

Yet, I've heard the government say they don't want people to leave.

Well, we're talking again, let's not mix ourselves up. Are you talking about the right wing, ultra-negative nationalists, or are you talking about the government? The government does not want people to leave. That's definitely true. The articles are not being put into the newspaper by the government, obviously. These articles are being put in by people.

Now, you can claim, I've heard even this morning at a meeting at the Ministry of Religion, that the government is not doing enough to combat anti-Semitism, and to apprehend to culprits. And you know, like you mentioned, the synagogue was burnt in (unintel.). That was just two weeks ago. Ok, the government has a working file on it, a criminal file, and they're working on it.

However, they have (sic) elections December 1, 1991. There was a bomb placed in the Kyyiv synagogue. And until this very day, they still didn't find the culprits. So, you know, people are grabbing onto these things that have happened and that nobody has ever found. And when people are found, other people who are you know, it depends on, it depends on if there will be elections next month. If there will be. And then, when, or if there will be, who will win? And how will he set up his government? And what his attitude will be towards national minorities. And how will he balance himself between the negative nationalists and the national minorities. These are all the questions that have to be answered. I mean, I would say, given Kerchuk's record in keeping inter ethnic relations at a very good state ...

This is keeping President Kerchuk of the Ukraine.

President Kerchuk, yeah. Well, as I mentioned before, the Ukraine definitely, by all means, and this is, you know, the State Department in the United States or anybody else can tell you, verify this, has the best record of any of the 15 former Soviet republics in human rights. And you can even verify this with Richard Schiffer in the White House. And I was at a visit in the Department and we spoke about this. And they verified that.

So, if someone would be able to keep that up and really play that card, because it's very important, the inter-ethnic relations, which are now at a very, very low level of conflict. They are seen in the polls as only 13 percent of the citizens of the Ukraine that were asked in this poll, consider that to be a point of conflict, inter-ethnic relations. Whereas relations between rich and poor are seen as causing conflict by over 50 percent of people who are asked.

Which means that, again, the economy problem can bring to it inter-ethnic problems to relations, national minorities. However, right now, if the government will be able to keep their status, I think that Jews have a pretty good chance of, you know, to a certain extent, rebuilding their life here.

Let's not forget that Ukraine, unlike Moscow or Russia, five years ago, had absolutely no Jewish life here, or organized Jewish life. Nothing. And the synagogues were totally like almost desolate, where they did exist. Only elderly Jews. Today, you have over 300 active Jewish organizations in the Ukraine.

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