INTERVIEW: Belarusian opposition leaders on the Lukashenka regime (09/01/96)

INTERVIEW: Belarusian opposition leaders on the Lukashenka regime

On Tuesday, July 16, the Ukrainian National Association was visited by a pair of wanted individuals from one of the last redoubts of authoritarianism in Europe, Belarus. Zyanon Paznyak, chairman of the Belarusian Popular Front and former parliamentary deputy, and Syarhei Navumchyk, also a former deputy and now the BPF press secretary, are in what, presumably, is temporary, self-imposed exile, denounced by their erratic president, Alyaksandr Lukashenka, for opposing Mr. Lukashenka's pro-Russian, and, in their opinion, anti-Belarusian and dictatorial policies, and marked for "neutralization" by the Lukashenka regime. This interview was conducted by The Weekly Editorial Assistant Yarema A. Bachynsky and Svoboda editorial staffer Serhiy Myroniuk.

Since this interview, the pair have sought political asylum in the U.S. The Lukashenka government has denied all allegations of persecution directed at it by Mssrs. Paznyak and Navumchyk. Mr. Lukashenka, in turn, on August 5th gave a lengthy television address in which he described the opposition figures as "terminally ill cases," according to Reuters. Mr. Lukashenka also predicted that opposition to his regime would become increasingly violent and that members of the opposition would "break in through apartment windows and rape your [law-abiding citizens'] wives and daughters."

PART I

Q: For what purpose did you come to the United States, who is sponsoring your trip, and what do you hope to accomplish here?

Zyanon Paznyak: We came to the U.S. by invitation of the National Endowment for Democracy. They, together, with a Warsaw-based organization, sponsored our trip, through provision of a grant and travel coordination. Our goal was to meet with political and state officials in the United States of America, and to discuss problems of our state independence, the threat emanating from Russia and human rights questions. Because, to our mind, the U.S. has thrown Belarus to the wolves. And this has led to the Lukashenka-Yeltsin pact, which is nothing other than a planned annexation of Belarus to Russia. Thus we found it crucial to meet with those political figures who formulate [U.S.] policy vis-a-vis Belarus, inform them of the situation and give our appraisal concerning that situation. Our appraisal, that is the view of the opposition Belarusian Popular Front.

Q: Did your visit here include meetings with congressional representatives or U.S. government officials?

Zyanon Paznyak: Yes. We met with chairmen of Senate committees, as well as State Department officials, congressmen and also with certain non-governmental, private organizations. We met with U.S. Representatives Frank Pallone (D-N.J.) and Christopher Cox (R-Cal.). We also met with officials at the State Department's Ukraine, Belarus and CIS desks, among them Carlos Pasquale, as well as with the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee. During our stay in Washington Zbigniew Brzezinski arranged a luncheon for us. Present at that event were more than 20 representatives of various political organizations, a number of active and retired public officials, among them former U.S. Secretary of State Alexander Haig. Overall I'd say that our meetings were quite useful and successful, because we dealt with active political figures, many of whom strongly influence formulation of foreign policy and its execution. It was very important to hear what they had to say and to familiarize them with our point of view. Virtually all of them touched on, to a lesser or greater extent, the question of what should the United States do vis-a-vis the situation in Belarus. This direct, perhaps at times even exceedingly direct, nature of our talks, was refreshing. In New York, our program was also arranged by the NED. We appeared yesterday [Monday, July 15] at Columbia University's Harriman Institute, where we addressed regional specialists, and later we were interviewed by Novoye Russkoye Slovo [the Russian-language daily published in New York]. We believe those meetings also went quite well.

Q: We understand that there is a warrant outstanding for your arrest, should you return to Belarus. We have also been informed that President Lukashenka has issued an edict for your "neutralization." What does this mean?

Zyanon Paznyak: This means that we are being persecuted for our political views, inasmuch as we do not share the outlook of the Lukashenka regime. The regime's goal here is very simple: destroy the movement and destroy its leader, and insofar as I am the leader, destroy me. But they have been unable to do this. When [during the disturbances which occurred in Miensk in late April] our apartment was surrounded by gunmen, I was able to literally escape out the back door, get into a cab and get across the border to safety, to Ukraine. There the communists nearly started a fight over my arrival. As soon as word was out about me in Kyiv, Lukashenka ordered the appropriate authorities to seek my extradition from Ukraine. In this vein the Belarusian Procurator General demanded my extradition by the Kyiv Procurator, but the Ukrainian side did not even bother to respond to the procurator's demand. Later, we went to the Czech Republic, met there with government officials, the head of President Havel's administration, with officials at the foreign ministry, gave press conferences, interviews with newspapers, television. We found supporters amongst the Czechs. In Poland, where we had been for over two months, our information is distributed every day, on television, over the radio. The Polish public is well aware of the current situation in our country. Regarding Ukraine, we have active relations with that country. Our position is simply that Belarus, Poland and Ukraine need to coordinate policy regarding the East, because the East threatens all our lands. Belarus has almost been captured, and if Belarusian democracy and independence are not defended now, then a similar threat will emerge against Poland and Ukraine. On June 24, at a Warsaw meeting on the subject of Eastern European security, NATO expansion etc., representatives of the three countries formed an understanding of the significance of this process to our region. On April 26 I quietly returned to Belarus from Poland for the Chornobyl commemoration. There was a large demonstration, Lukashenka's security forces tried to get at me as I was addressing the crowd [numbering between 50-70,000 according to BPF estimates], but when, at 10 p.m. they raided the headquarters of the BPF, arresting everyone present, I still escaped them, coming across the border again. Soon after, Lukashenka called in his security chiefs, the KGB etc., severely scolded them for their failure to apprehend me, and thereafter branded me an "enemy of the people" who carries on anti-presidential activities from the safe harbor of foreign countries. Later, he issued a secret order to "neutralize" us. The meaning of the word is well known to many Americans. We take this threat quite seriously and just today, having spoken with Miensk, we learned that he has again threatened us while addressing Parliament. These rantings of a psychologically ill personality must be taken seriously. He is obsessed and as such his threats must be taken seriously.

Q: What do you mean when you say he is obsessed?

Zyanon Paznyak: He has promised to become president of Russia. He does everything to further this. Take the Russian-Belarusian union. Naturally, Russia is interested in this union. But he has his own personal interest in it. People can't understand, how is it that a president of a state acts directly against the sovereignty of his own state. This is idiocy, moronic behavior. There is no logic to this behavior, except his own sick, twisted logic. He thinks he can become president of all Russia. But how can the citizen of a foreign state become president of Russia? Very simply. He proposes such a tight integration between our Belarus and Russia that Belarus will cease to exist as a sovereign entity. He has publicly said that "sovereignty is nonsense" on national television. And in his dealings with Yeltsin in preparation of the Russian-Belarusian union, he demanded that a single, joint government be created. But Yeltsin, the imperialist he is, said "No. Russia must remain sovereign." And Belarus of course, should remain sovereign, according to Yeltsin's logic. But Lukashenka believes that with a new, unitary state, new presidential elections would be required. And he figures he can accede to the presidency in this manner. He has taken control of the government apparatus, reined in the banks and put the economy on the mat.

Q: He has spoken officially in this manner?

Zyanon Paznyak: No, he does not say these things nowadays. But if we go back one year, after the referendum [the 1995 referendum in which Belarusian voters elected to give Russian equal status with Belarusian, to revert to Soviet-style national symbols and to pursue close economic integration with the Russian Federation], he stated "For me Belarus is a bygone stage."

Syarhei Navumchyk: Let me correct this statement. Lukashenka, as was reported by the independent press at that time, immediately following the referendum, said not only that Belarus was a bygone for him, but also that "Now it is time to orient ourselves on the Kremlin."

Q: We understand that Mr. Lukashenka has even tried his hand at what is known, in the United States as shuttle diplomacy.

Zyanon Paznyak: Last summer Lukashenka bought himself a presidential airplane for $45 million. Well, once you have bought a plane, you must fly somewhere, no? So he flew to visit Boris Yeltsin and play tennis with him in Sochi [a Black Sea resort city southern Russia]. Once there, he had to wait half a day for Yeltsin to sober up. Finally they met, but the planned tennis match between Yeltsin and Lukashenka did not take place. Instead, [Mr. Yeltsin's former security chief Alexander] Korzhakov faced him on the court. Yeltsin continued partying... None of the official media sources mentioned this; we learned it only through internal diplomatic channels. Later, during a discussion with Yeltsin, Lukashenka proposed that Belarus and Russia unite, with the two presidents of the former states taking turns on an annual basis at the helm of the unified state. Yeltsin found this interesting, but told Lukashenka to bring [Ukrainian President Leonid] Kuchma on board. So he flew on to Kyiv, where he waited for over a day before Mr. Kuchma received him [the Ukrainian President was in Dnipropetrovske at the time on a regional visit.]

Syarhei Navumchyk: And Lukashenka complained about having to wait for Kuchma, as if someone had been expecting his arrival in the Ukrainian capital, stating "I am here, but where is Leonid?"

Kuchma listened to him but gave no commitments whatsoever, after which Lukashenka flew to see [Russian Prime Minister Viktor] Chernomyrdin. Chernomyrdin, however, was less diplomatic than Yeltsin, saying to Lukashenka, "This [Russia] is not a kolhosp" [in a reference to Mr. Lukashenka's previous executive experience as manager of a collective farm in Belarus].

Q: It seems as if Mr. Lukashenka strikes almost a comic figure at times.

Zyanon Paznyak: What I am saying sounds funny, but the fact remains that it is very dangerous, this schizophrenic fixation of his on becoming leader of Russia. Naturally, what he has done is useful to Russia, the ruination of the Belarusian economy, surrender of sovereignty etc. One wonders why the president of a country would call national sovereignty "nonsense." But he has his own way of thinking, his own goals. And it is important to understand that similar goals were shared by that group of people who came to power years ago, created artificial famines throughout Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan etc. How many died in your Ukraine? Six million? More, perhaps? A band of criminals took power under a lumpen ideology called scientific communism, terrorized 70 million by force, and for what? So it was with the communists. Or take Hitler, a man people laughed at. So we see, that despite the humor the situation is serious, when a man like Lukashenka is put into power. He sends the police to beat innocent people in the streets. Seven Ukrainian citizens [arrested at the time of the April 26 demonstrations against the Lukashenka regime] are still sitting in a Miensk jail, and for what? Our youth tried to demonstrate and literally everyone got surrounded, beaten, tear-gassed, and many were arrested.

Syarhei Navumchyk: In our meetings in the State Department and the Senate, we especially raised the matter of two political prisoners, vice president of the democratic Beer Lovers' party Andrei Ramasheusky and the poet Slavomir Adamovich, who is being held for a poem he wrote, allegedly titled "Kill the President." Mr. Adamovich was the first Belarusian poet to condemn Stalin's deeds, soon after that dictator's death. By the way, the arrest and holding of the seven Ukrainians, members of the Ukrainian National Assembly, in Miensk, has been effectuated only through the direct violation of practically every rule of the Belarusian code of criminal procedure. They have not been allowed to see an attorney, the conditions of their detention are pathetic, and even the Ukrainian Embassy has had great difficulty maintaining contact with them. That is why the Belarusian Popular Front and the Belarusian Helsinki Committee are both demanding the earliest release of these seven individuals.

Q: Does the Lukashenka government have popular support and is there a chance that the regime could be deposed, whether from within or by outside means?

Zyanon Paznyak: In 1994, 56 percent of all voters voted for Lukashenka. True, 80 percent of those voting in the second round voted for him, but this constituted only 56 percent of all eligible voters. Now, he has the support of a stable 25 percent of the population. And I say "stable" because these are for the most part older people, veterans, members of the former nomenklatura, ethnic Russians, people of a pro-Communist and pro-Stalinist orientation, who so loath the Belarusian state and nation that they will support Lukashenka to the bitter end, even if one were to skin them alive. Lukashenka has the most marginal voters. Young people reject him, intellectuals, there is a growing and active opposition to him within blue collar constituencies. He is also not accepted by the current bureaucracy, including persons appointed by him to high positions. They fear him and so carry out his orders, but they do not in any way see him as a leader of the nation, as someone worth defending. The bureaucracy may be nostalgic but it is unenthusiastic about Lukashenka, to the extent that some of his orders are not carried out. This is true of all structures, including the KGB, which he does not trust.

Q: Then what is his base of power?

Zyanon Paznyak: He has created a praetorian guard of approximately 2,400 within the Interior Ministry, as well as surrounded himself with hand-picked lackeys. His guiding principle in choosing retainers is "No Belarusians need apply." That is his principal power structure. His closest advisors and collaborators are people connected, in the first place, with the Russian intelligence services. There are retired colonels among them, various other ranking officers of the Russian FSB, the foreign intelligence service. Some of them are even Russian citizens. The Belarusian Constitution forbids citizens of other countries from holding appointed posts in government, but this is nonetheless a reality in our country. For example Lukashenka appointed as vice chairman of the KGB, Yerin, a Russian citizen, formerly a colonel in the FSB.

Q: This Yerin is still a part of the FSB?

Syarhei Navumchyk: Well now he is part of the Belarusian KGB, but the point is that he is a Russian citizen.

Zyanon Paznyak: Could you imagine if the head of the FBI or the CIA were a Chinese citizen who is head of the Chinese intelligence services? The point being: how can a citizen of another country serve in such a capacity? This is our reality. Within Lukashenka's inner circle of Russians there is but one Belarusian, the chief of the presidential administration, well-connected with the Russian economic mafia, Uladzimir Zamyatalin. We have a junta which has seized control of the security services and the budget. Funds from the budget are regularly poured over into the so-called presidential fund. There are sufficient documents to prove this. Should there be a national uprising, and this can occur in our current difficult socioeconomic situation, then most of the government bureaucracy and nomenklatura will turn away from Lukashenka, especially if he loses Moscow's support. Should the masses take to the streets, as they did in 1991, when hundreds of thousands came out, then the junta, though allied with Lukashenka, would face a possible difficult choice. He is the type of person who would order the shooting of demonstrators, as is evidenced by the beating, on his orders, of parliamentary deputies in 1995, the suppression of the recent demonstrations, etc. So the junta would have to consider whether they would want blood on their hands, or perhaps get rid of Lukashenka like the Romanians got rid of Ceaucescu in 1989... So he really does not have much support, apart from the junta and the 25 percent of communists, Russians and fringe elements amongst the population at large. He trusts neither the militia nor the KGB, only his hand-picked retainers. And this is common knowledge in Belarus. He is a man who does not take his bulletproof vest off in public, and he will soon sleep in it, if he is not doing so already.

Q: Have experts commented on Mr. Lukashenka's mental state, his sanity?

Zyanon Paznyak: Psychiatrists who have observed his behavior have concluded he is a paranoid schizophrenic. The classic symptoms are there. There is constant turbulence, a non-stop search for enemies. If none can be found, they are created within the sufferer's head. In Lukashenka's case, it's hard to find a highly placed official appointed by him, who has not subsequently been either fired, demoted, threatened with harm or actually punished. The most recent example is the case of the Russian Belarusophobe Tatiana Vinnikova, the new head of the National Bank of Belarus. When, about a month after her appointment, she refused to carry out some order of his because of her knowledge that it went against all accepted banking procedures, e.g.. to make "5" out of "4," Lukashenka told her, simply, to obey his orders or suffer the consequences. She refused, and a short time thereafter, her son was severely beaten by unknown assailants. The same thing happened when the wife of a Radio Liberty correspondent critical of the Lukashenka regime was beaten unconscious by masked men, who specifically told the woman that her beating was in retribution for her husband's acts. So you see what his power rests on: lies and brute force.

CONCLUSION