INTERVIEW: Bishop Lubomyr Husar on the present and future of the Ukrainian Catholic Church (10/27/96)

INTERVIEW: Bishop Lubomyr Husar on the present and future of the Ukrainian Catholic Church

Bishop Lubomyr Husar was the leader of the Kyiv-Vyshhorod Exarchate. He was installed in June of this year, after being appointed on April 2 by Cardinal Myroslav Ivan Lubachivsky, the leader of the Greek-Catholic Church. Bishop Husar attended the Patriarchal Sobor held in Lviv October 6-10 and was appointed by Cardinal Lubachivsky to preside over its work. Today many view him as the odds-on favorite to succeed Cardinal Lubachivsky as the leader of the Church.

He spoke with The Weekly's Kyiv correspondent, Roman Woronowycz, on October 11 in place of Cardinal Lubachivsky, who, because of his health and advanced years, does not grant interviews. The interview with Bishop Husar was conducted six days before he was appointed by the World Synod as auxiliary bishop to the major archbishop of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church.

CONCLUSION

Q: Wouldn't a Patriarchate make a reunion between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, which many would like to see, more difficult because a formal Patriarchate would strengthen the organized structure of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church still further?

A: It could go either way. We know the history of the Armenian Church, where the establishment of a Patriarchate caused a split in the Church. But I think that in our circumstance, in our Church, the recognition of a Patriarchate, and I may be mistaken, would be a big push in asserting that to be a Christian Catholic absolutely does not conflict with the idea of being a Christian of the Eastern Rite tradition.

Formal recognition by the Apostolic Center and other Patriarchates would be a strong push. Today in Ukraine we have two Ukrainian Patriarchates of the Orthodox Church. As a matter of fact, next week they will be celebrating the 75th anniversary of the renewal of the Autocephalous Church, a very special occasion for them. They are preparing together, they will be celebrating together. I consider that a very important step [in their reconciliation process]. That foundation, the acknowledgment of a national Church with patriarchal rights, with a Patriarchal order, would enhance the prestige of the Church. Christians in Ukraine might then realize, everybody knows that three or four patriarchates are not needed. Then it will be clear that it all must be pulled into one.

I believe this will not be an easy step. Individual ambitions and all types of politics will come into play. But a healthy national Christian identity will lead to reunion. That is how I feel about this matter.

Q: Again returning to your Kyiv press conference, you said you believed that the Catholic Church, unfortunately, deals with the Orthodox Church as with an entity with which they have signed a non-aggression pact and that it has not reached out in a pro-active manner to discover a common ground for movement toward union. Specifically, what should such a process look like?

A: Very personally speaking, I believe that our relationships are marked by a cautiousness, a remoteness. In my short time in Kyiv, which has not been as I would have wanted it, I have not had the chance to meet with the representatives of all the Orthodox Churches, unfortunately. I am not pleased with it, and I consider it a negative aspect of my service there. I should have met with them as soon as possible, but I simply did not physically have the ability to do this, not because of a lack of willingness, but because I was pressed by other things and did not have the time to properly prepare.

I do not have the slightest doubt of how I would have wanted to engage them during such a meeting, which would have been to straight out ask them, "How can we work together? What can we do together to become closer?"

We must, from all sides, and here I am not just speaking of the Greek-Catholic Church, work very clearly in a direction that shows progress, not simply to wait for manna to fall from heaven, or for all the misunderstandings between Christians to fall away like the Soviet Union fell apart. We must work at it. And the Lord will do His part in time. We must avoid being guilty of doing nothing.

I do not feel, and it is more than a feeling, I do not see any position of the Greek-Catholic Church, when worked through, thought out and deeply reflected upon, that opposes the views of our Orthodox brothers.

Today they are divided into three groups; one is canonical and two are not. One is more prevalent in the east [of Ukraine], another one is more concentrated in the western territories. That is, each one has its own physical specifics. But we, the Greek-Catholic Church, have not yet decided what type of position we are to take regarding the Orthodox. As a result there are those who openly support them, almost as if part of them, and others who consider them heretics, and will not even break bread with them.

Now that normal meetings of the bishops of Ukraine have again begun, I hope that we will be able to work through the problems. We will work to make sure we agree on what we are doing and that the Orthodox know what to expect from us.

The Orthodox speak to a bishop of ours who is sympathetic to their cause and it seems to them that everything looks good. A sort of illusion is formed that everything is okay; there are no problems.

Then they meet one who is so against them that he turns his head when they approach, and then there is confusion. We must develop our position, work it through and present it. To this day we have not done that. But I am hopeful that this will be done, it is important. We must clarify our positions.

Q: Regarding His Excellency Myroslav Lubachivsky. I want to ask you about the status of his health. We have been told that he is very sick. The press service of the UGCC suggested that we turn to you about an interview because the cardinal's health changes from day to day. Will an assistant to the leader of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church soon be appointed to help Cardinal Lubachivsky in carrying out his daily duties? Has there been any discussion and has the process begun?

A: Understand that His Excellency is an older person. Age in itself is a debilitation to some extent. It is not easy for him to do all that he wants. His general health does not allow him to meet with people regularly or, simply, to do all that he wants.

This, without a doubt, to a certain extent reflects on the status of the Church. Thank God, his intellectual capabilities are all there, so he is fully aware of what is going on and can make the needed decisions. At the last Synod of Bishops in 1995 there was some discussion to help him, but no decisions were made. I was not there so I can only tell you what was told to me. There were efforts to resolve the matter; to give some assistance. The efforts, it seems, were unsuccessful, they weren't proposed properly. No decisions were made, and for another year, we have been left hanging. Naturally, an older person needs an assistant, or assistants, ones that will work with him. He needs a person with whom he can work. In civilized society that is expected.

I hope that the Synod, which begins shortly, will find him a person who can give him that help, an intelligent and worldly person, so that the head of the Church can continue to work in an effective manner.

It is for the benefit of our general welfare. The Church cannot waste time without a clear, effective administrative leadership, so to speak. He has ideas, but those ideas must be transformed into reality.

Q: Returning to something we discussed earlier, the anti-sobor, as many have dubbed the conference of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate, which was held in Lviv on October 4-6. There, they spoke of the martyrs of the Brest Union and their stand against a visit to Ukraine by the pope. Please comment on that situation.

A: The official commentary of the Church's organ was only published just yesterday. Whether there were martyrs or not - I'm sure that in 400 years we also did persecute to an extent, especially in the 16th and 17th centuries. We did our part, there were persecutions of the Orthodox by the Uniates.

Some Uniates still today hold grudges against the Orthodox, especially after the 1950s, when the Russian Orthodox Church, and we cannot dismiss this, actively pursued the decision of the 1946 sobor, and later took advantage of that, although, perhaps unsuccessfully, which still bothers them today. It became the ruling Church. But that is secondary.

I look at it differently. It is not advantageous for them and, in my mind, very offensive that they say they will ask the pope to separate the two Churches [Ukrainian Greek-Catholic and the Church of Rome], to abolish the Greek-Catholic Church, to liquidate it. I recall that the Soviet regime attempted this.

To ask the head of the Church to abolish, for him to abolish... I do not know how to respond accordingly, it is not Christian nor cultured, it is plain not civilized. And so tactless that I cannot predict how they will squirm out of it. Every healthy-minded individual can only react to it as if told, "I don't like you, I think the best solution is to execute you."

But I must say that I didn't finish reading their official proclamation. I tell you honestly, I couldn't, after reading that phrase. I told myself, or I hope, that it is not the position of the whole Church. But there were bishops in attendance and the fact that they stated this at a major conference, and that academics presented 30 papers; and to come to such conclusions.

But from a different angle, the pope will come here not to visit with them but to meet with the Catholics, basically. Of course, he will want to meet with everybody. But the attitude, "Don't come here because we don't like it." I think that if this is a dropping of the gauntlet, it was done in a tactless and non-Christian, non-brotherly manner. Unfortunately, if this (the article appeared in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate press) reflects the position of the Church and is accurate, it shows the truly negative internal situation and stance of this Church.

Q: Shifting gears again, tell us how did the celebrations of the 400th anniversary of the union take place in Rome? We heard very little.

A: As a part of the celebrations that have taken place this year, I think it was a notable event; the fact that we celebrated together with the blessed father, he who is the guarantor of Christian unity as the successor to St. Peter, is of itself notable. Such an event carries its own weight. There were important moments, elements.

I feel that the holy father, when he said that [the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church] does live and must work and that it has a spiritual responsibility to achieve autochthonous unity, said it to mean that we have more than a heavenly inspired assignment.

I feel that all those present took it as an inspiration, a desire; we must work; we work; we do not simply reflect upon that which happened 400 years ago; we live. We must given reason to our lives.

There were other celebrations, concerts and what not, but what I saw as most worthy, what I would some day like to be shown in Ukraine, with the understanding that the Ukrainian government and those that are responsible would take part in it, is an exhibition of the Vatican archives of the documents that show the centuries-long affiliation between the Apostolic Church and Ukraine. I think that this is an important point.

These are documents. Nobody can tell me that somebody conjured up these documents. Please, look at these documents. Everyone who wanted to and knew how to read them had the ability to review these documents.

I find it difficult not to overemphasize this fact. Our Church, which is of the Eastern tradition, strove for relations with the Universal Church, religious, cultural. It strove to establish relations outside of Ukraine and its Eastern tradition. The Church was an open Church, it understood its universality. The anniversary we are celebrating, the 400 years, is not something that fell from heaven. It is not that our bishops panicked, with nowhere to turn and not knowing what to do. The tradition of our relations, our experience with Rome, is hundreds of years old.

Our people, looking at their options at that time knew that they had something they could count on. Understand, it was not a contradiction of our interests, of our normal relations. It was and is very much a part of our historical tradition. Those who call us traitors and separatists, and other things, simply do not know, they do not remember their history.

It is simple talk, I believe, to deceive and to agitate our poor people.

Q: At the local levels, at least, have the inter-confessional disagreements and arguments subsided, in your opinion?

A: I believe that they do exist. I'll give you a very concrete example. There are 137 conflicts that have been reported in Lviv [between Catholics and Orthodox faithful]. What does that mean? The courts have ruled that, because only one church exists in certain towns or villages, Catholics and Orthodox must take turns using the building until a second structure is built.

And what does that mean? In 131 instances the Orthodox have control of the church and do not allow the Catholics in. On the other hand, there are six instances where the Catholics have the church and do not allow the Orthodox in.

From what I understand, from the information that I have received from the Lviv Oblast administration and from what the Office of the President has told me, the six parishes where the Orthodox are not allowed in send about 30 letters monthly stating their complaint.

They talk about how they suffer at the hands of the Catholics. But they hear nothing from the 131 other churches. What happens is that an illusion is formed that only the Catholics are persecuting the Orthodox. If only the Catholics of the 131 churches who must celebrate liturgy beneath a cross or in a cemetery, or God knows where, if they would begin to question, write and scream, then the situation might be different, statistically and public relations-wise.

But the facts are as such and you can ascertain them either here or in Kyiv.

A person showed up here from the Ukrainian government to review the situation, and this should be checked out, this is what I was told. His report was immoral and untrue. He took a one-sided position in his report. One of our bishops, from an area that is involved, was forced to write a letter to the president protesting how the matter was handled.

The representative, who answers to the president, said that all the problems have been caused by the Catholics, and the Catholic Church is not needed. This is not what a representative of the government should state in an objective report. You can get the details from the Bishop of Drohobych-Sambir, Yulian Voronovsky. He has the statistics. These are the facts.

We must be very careful today. You mentioned the Ukrainian Orthodox conference earlier, which was hosted by the Moscow Patriarchate. They spoke of the 100,000 or so who suffered at the hands of the Catholics. I believe that such numbers must be reviewed very carefully and investigated. Please explain to us how, when and where this happened on the basis of scientific investigation and not merely by means of small talk.

When, in 1989-1990, representatives of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church -Moscow Patriarchate traveled to Western Europe, they talked of how the Greek-Catholics were maltreating the Orthodox, taking their churches. But when journalists from the West asked them to give substantiation, documentation through police reports or court papers, they stopped. I think that spreading cheap propaganda of this type is not constructive. Here it is important that journalists demand the facts. If there is merit to it, please write about it, but if it is only simple talk to create a hostile atmosphere toward the Greek-Catholic Church, that must be identified and exposed.

Q: In your opinion why do the Orthodox write letters and the Catholics do not?

A: I cannot tell you for certain, but I believe that, and this is only my opinion, that somebody puts them up to it. I have my own little piece of evidence. In the last days there have been demonstrations in front of St. George's [Cathedral] regarding the sobor. I live on the upper floors and from my window I can see out onto the square here. It does not take a genius to see that these demonstrations were orchestrated; there were certain people who incited the people, who organized them, positioned them, told them where to stand. These were orchestrated events not spontaneous responses by the people.

Q: My last question to you. Acquaintances and friends of mine in Kyiv, Ukrainians, say that the new fashion here is attending church, to which I have replied that although it could be true, some portion of them will stay after the fad has run its course. Has the Church noticed a trend toward increased attendance at liturgy and would you call it a fad, if so?

A: It is tough for me to say because I do not stand outside the churches reviewing this matter, but I will say, from my own experience, that there is a certain number of young people, a fair number of people up to the age of 40, at maximum 45, even people who hold responsible positions but have not reached a certain status in their lives; they are still growing. They have a serious and sincere interest in religious matters.

I can't give you the statistics but can only say that I have met such people, and I think that the Greek-Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches must pay serious attention to them and give them a spiritual home. If we do not do this they will turn to the sects.

This is a much deeper problem than a choice of this or that faith. It is a matter of whether a person feels spiritually at home, or does not. And if, let's say, 90 young persons suddenly begin appearing in church, that will quickly change if the church does not become a home for them; if they do not find themselves, psychologically, religiously. They must be able to tell themselves that I feel good here; that I feel satisfied; that this place helps me solve the difficulties in my life, if this does not happen, the liturgy itself, the beauty of the rite, the choir, or the music, or all of it, will not keep them.

Whether these are people who although young, have a position in life, or Kyivan-born people, or from western Ukraine, or eastern Ukraine, or the north, or the south, these matters are irrelevant. It doesn't matter how they came, by some miracle they came, thank God.

Let it be simply a fashion, as you properly pointed out; some will stay. But who? Those who will find their home there.

The Church should thank God that these people knocked at its door and came. But even if they hadn't shown up, the Church would still have had to undertake a major effort, and this was one of the themes of our Sobor, too, and I do not mean to force young people to take part or to embarrass them into attending by telling them that they are worth nothing if they don't come, but to create a psychological and religious home, a place where a person will feel satisfied, within himself; where he will want to be because there he meets with God.

PART I