INTERVIEW: Rudenko-Desniak on national cultural autonomy in Russia
by Roman Woronowycz
Kyiv Press Bureau
Oleksander Rudenko-Desniak is a principal founder and the current president of the Association of Ukrainians in Russia (AUR). The 61-year-old journalist was born in Chernihiv, Ukraine, and moved to Russia in 1954. For almost 40 years he worked in Moscow as a literary critic, most recently for the magazine Druzhba Narodiv, where he was national literature editor. He has published a book, "Domivka v Dolyni vid Domivky," about the waves of Ukrainian emigration to the West. The interview with Mr. Rudenko-Desniak took place during the Second Congress of Ukrainians in Russia, held in Moscow on October 23-24. In the first of two parts, Mr. Rudenko-Desniak speaks about national cultural autonomy, a status that the AUR is currently working to achieve with the Russian government. The second part will deal with relations between the AUR and the Western diaspora, as well as with Ukraine.
PART I
Q: One of the objectives of the Congress of Ukrainians in Russia is to finalize documents on national cultural autonomy, which will then be submitted to the Russian government for approval. What does national cultural autonomy mean and what will it give Ukrainians living in Russia?
A: When the Soviet empire collapsed and the new Russian state appeared, a unique and unusual legal situation resulted. There are many nations within the Russian Federation that have their own states within the confines of the Russian Federation, like the Tatars, Bashkirians, Ossetians, and so on. They have representation in the Parliament and in government administrative bodies. It is a situation unique to Russia and its historical reality.
However, at the time when the old state fell apart and the new one had not yet established itself, it became clear that certain ethnic groups living in Russia as diasporas, such as Ukrainians, Greeks, Armenians, Azeris, Jews, Poles, had been left in a strange situation: they existed de facto, but not de jure in the eyes of the state.
When the first Congress of Ukrainians in Russia met four years ago, we put forward the issue of an effective law that would guarantee our rights. In Russia there was no law that regulated the rights of minorities, and in the 500 years of the Russian state there never had been such a law.
This was a serious undertaking: the legitimization of a national (ethnic) community. Today each group in contemporary society needs to live by certain sets of regulations. Businessmen have their regulations, journalists have theirs, doctors have theirs and each social group has theirs, pensioners have theirs.
If there is no specified set of regulations, for example, if there are no regulations pertaining to pensioners, it can become catastrophic. National minorities are also a social group. They must form their own regulations, how they are to live in society, how to build their relations with the external world on a civil basis.
We raised the issue that nationality rights are not something exotic, it is not national dance or halushky (dumplings), but part of the inalienable rights of a person, such as the right of a person to an education, to a roof over their head, the right to a lawyer. These are inalienable rights as are the rights of national minorities, not just to have a national consciousness, but a national program. This was our goal.
The Congress of Ukrainians in Russia, with all its faults, became one of the powerful forces for the need to develop this sort of effective law in Russia. That need took the shape of the law on national cultural autonomy. This law was signed by the president of Russia on June 25, 1996, and became a standard legislative act of Russia.
Q: What does national cultural autonomy mean?
A: This involves a complicated legal history. In 1918 a law on individual national cultural autonomy was passed in Ukraine when independence was declared. We are not the first to have considered how to assure the rights of national minorities within the structures of the government. There were the rights of the individual, but there was no concept of the rights of national minorities. There was not a person in the world who could have given you a legal definition of a national minority. That is why there is a very artful formulation in the documents [of 1918]: "people who relate to national minorities." There was no other way to formulate the term. Any way you formulated it, [someone] could have found a way to absolutely destroy your reasoning from a legal point of view.
National cultural autonomy should not merely be a declaration of the rights of national minorities. After all, that is in the Constitution. What is needed is a concretization of the principle; the form it should take. The vehicle for national cultural autonomy is a national organization, a national association, which has sufficiently extensive rights under the new law, an organization with legal standing in terms of the rights of a national community, a national minority. It is not simply, "yes, there are 5 million Ukrainians [in Russia]."
There are several purposes. First is the educational-informational function because national self-identification is at its most basic a spiritual matter, as well as the problems of language and information. An individual must have the right to an education and access to information in their native tongue. One of the priorities of national cultural autonomy is to guarantee just this.
Second, it took us a long time to figure out how to develop a legitimate representation of national minorities in government structures. It is a very complicated matter. There was an idea to make a nationalities parliament as part of the Russian State Duma, or a representation within it. There are 5 million Ukrainians, so then let there be five deputies, I guess, who are Ukrainians. But this would have been a strange creature. It would have been merely symbolic and not able to influence matters. Secondly, it would have broken a very serious principle of democracy, one man, one vote.
So we had to find a middle road in which the concept of one man, one vote was retained and yet a legitimate representation existed. But how?
When I was in Canada, I researched the Canadian experience. Canada has had an interesting experience determining the national minority question, which includes the concept of multiculturalism.
They have a Canadian Ethnocultural Council, whose past president, Dmytro Cipywnyk, is current president of the Ukrainian World Congress. I took the council as a model, and my contribution to the law [on national cultural autonomy] was wording for a consultative council on the matter of national cultural autonomy in the vertical structures of the executive government, as well as alongside the federation's subject bodies (oblasts and autonomous republics).
The consultative council is not a parliament. It has no decision-making authority and is not a legislative body. It tracks the implementation of legislation that has to do with national minorities, with direct access to the government.
It gives expert analysis on all laws that have bearing on issues of national minorities and is responsible for giving a point of view. So with more or less normal relations between such a council and the government, and members of the government, it assures that the government avoids major mistakes when preparing or incorporating certain legislation regarding sensitive issues. It does not give [the council] power of veto, but allows them to give input to come to an agreement.
I understand that this is a delicate problem. I did a lot work on this. But if this is not to be a branch of government, then relations between the council and government must be built so that the government understands that if the council's viewpoints are not taken into account, it will be more difficult for the government to work.
I spoke about this in the Duma and to the government. It is normal that you ask those who are affected [by a piece of legislation]. I said to them, "When you are considering a law on the military, you consult the military." That's normal.
You consult with those who will live with the new law. If they say everything is beautiful, pass the law, that's fine. But if they say that they do not agree, then you have to take the bill back and keep working on it.
So that is why we need national cultural autonomy. This is the beginning of an organizational structure. We are forming national cultural autonomy at the federal level and at the regional levels. We have a truly national structure with informational and educational responsibilities. This also involves the protection of rights in their broadest meaning.
Q: Who will make up the composition of the consultative council?
A: The consultative council will be composed of all representatives of national minorities who are registered as having national cultural autonomy. The consultative council on national cultural autonomy has been formed and is currently chaired by Vice Prime Minister Romazan Abdulatipov. I am the assistant chairman of the council as the representative of the communities.
Q: All the communities or the Ukrainian community?
A: I am the representative of the Ukrainian community, and at the same time I represent the others, the Azeris, the Korean community, the Jewish community and so on, the major national diaspora organizations in Russia that are now attached to the consultative council.
We are working now, on a temporary basis, with those leaders, but as the nationality groups form their national cultural autonomy organizations, these leaders will be replaced on the consultative committee with their official representatives.
And when other groups achieve national cultural autonomy, their representatives will automatically be included on the consultative council.
Q: What does it take for an ethnic group to achieve national cultural autonomy ?
A: Take a region, something comparable to a state in the United States. Here we call it a "krai" or an oblast. Representatives of an ethnic community from a certain krai meet and decide that they want to form an organization of national cultural autonomy. After making that decision they go through procedures as specified in the law on civic organizations.
The organization then submits the required documents to a local government office that registers such organizations. Now the organization can begin its work. It can open a bank account. It has legal standing and can deal with the government as an official organization, not simply as an assembly of individuals. The procedure is not complicated and fairly democratic.
To attain status on the federal level, it takes merely two regional national cultural autonomy groups. Others can join later. By Russian law they form a federal organization of national cultural autonomy. They also attain legal standing. Whereas the regional organizations hold regional legal standing, the federal organization is legally recognized by the Ministry of Justice of Russia. In this way, federal status is effectively assured and allows the federal organization to officially deal with the various government structures.
Q: Does it insure receipt of money from the federal budget?
A: We are actually discussing that now. It is another purpose of this congress. Every good intention has to be set on a practical foundation. We realized that, generally, to deal with the problems of our community, we need a federal program of support of Ukrainian culture in Russia.
We reached agreement with the Ministry of Nationalities that our organization will submit proposals for such a program. Then we will review the proposals together, after which we will submit them to other government organs. Then this will be turned into a government document to be signed by the head of government (the prime minister).
There is precedent. A German program has been approved by the government. There is a federal program of cultural support for the Turkic nation. We are currently preparing such a program for Ukrainians in Russia.
But the principle news here is that our program is the first being prepared by an ethnic minority living in Russia as a diaspora. It is to a certain extent an experiment, because never has such a program existed for diaspora groups. After us, the Armenians and the Assyrians, a small nation here, will submit experimental programs.
It is an experiment for the state. It must show that it has the ability to resolve issues. And it is an experiment for the community, because it must show that it can do more than set out instances of its rights being violated, that it can offer concrete proposals to resolve problems.
If this becomes an official document, there will be two parts to it. First, there will be a section on the responsibilities of the federal government in certain areas, for instance in education, which have a general state character. And then also at the regional level, we'll call them mini-programs, where each subject of the federation (autonomous republic, oblast and krai level) has responsibilities. And this includes finances. In each instance responsibility will have to be delineated. For example, in one city there may be a need for a Ukrainian cultural center. This of course will be the responsibility of the regional government. But what if a need is shown for Ukrainian language texts? It is impossible to have each region develop its own textbooks. The Ministry of Education would have that responsibility.
One other aspect of this. We would like to bring Ukraine's Ministry of Education into certain programs by the year 2000 to optimally unite and economize costs.
For instance, if there is a need for a certain type of textbook that is available in Ukraine but not here, we would like to be able to get the computer diskettes of that textbook and do the printing here. The Russian government would then absorb the costs of printing and distribution. Along the same lines, I believe Ukraine needs to prepare a whole line of educational publications on the history of Ukraine, video programs on its culture, but they need to be thought out, not quickly-thrown-together projects.
Q: The financing for the Russian part of these projects, say for distribution of books and videos, would come out of the Russian budget?
A: We expect so. Minister of Nationalities Viacheslav Mikhailov said that when such a program becomes a government document and when national cultural autonomy is achieved, then the question of finances will be addressed.
This is a very serious matter in Russia. The economic state of Russia is a serious problem. There are very real budget problems. But if the government doesn't see an organized community, it will never disburse financing. For that matter, no country will.
A government doesn't go for sentiment. Only when it sees organized citizens with specific demands does it engage in dialogue. It has to be a lobby of a sort.
Q: What organizations come under the auspices of the Association of Ukrainians in Russia?
A: The Association of Ukrainians in Russia was formed in October 1993. Currently, I believe it consists of close to 50 organizations. Understand, I don't have the actual figure. In recent days representatives of new organizations have presented their mandates for membership.
In regions such a Komin in the north there are several Ukrainian organizations. In the oil and gas regions such a Tiumen there are many Ukrainians as well. There are places where only one Ukrainian organization exists, such as in Penz or in Perm.
A very interesting process is taking place. About five or six years ago, there was a fascination with national self-identification. Traditional dance and song became popular, as did a sense of nostalgia. This wave then somehow died. Today, new processes have begun, new organizations are emerging. But today they are being created with a certain sense of professionalism.
For example, in Perm, an educational organization was recently formed. It is not just an organization of Ukrainians. It is looking to develop on a higher level. In Moscow, a Ukrainian Institute has been formed at the Moscow Pedagogical Institute. It is comparable to the Ukrainian Research Institute at Harvard University.
So the work in the [Russian] diaspora is taking on a more professional appearance. I believe the process will continue, that organizations will form like those in the U.S.; organizations of doctors, or teachers or lawyers.
Ukrainians will continue to gather, let's say during Christmas or whenever, but the everyday work of the community will take on a specialized character. One group will deal with religious matters, others with social services, and so on.
Copyright © The Ukrainian Weekly, November 9, 1997, No. 45, Vol. LXV
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