FOR THE RECORD
RFE/RL releases transcripts of interviews with Melnychenko
RFE/RL Poland, Belarus and Ukraine Report
On December 29, 2000, and January 9, RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service broadcast live interviews with Mykola Melnychenko, a major in the reserve of the Ukrainian Security Service and a former presidential bodyguard, who provoked a political scandal in Ukraine by publicizing the tapes that allegedly show President Leonid Kuchma's complicity in the disappearance of independent journalist Heorhii Gongadze.
On both occasions, Mr. Melnychenko contacted the Prague-based studio of RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service of his own choice and spoke by telephone on the live program called "Vechirnia Svoboda" (Evening Radio Liberty).
Following are excerpts of the interviews with Mr. Melnychenko translated from the transcriptions that were published in the Internet newsletter Ukrainska Pravda (http://www.pravda.com.ua) and on the RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service Internet site (http://www.rferl.org/bd/uk/ukrainian/).
PART II: JANUARY INTERVIEW
There was a link between the studios of RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service in Prague and Kyiv during Melnychenko's interview. The Kyiv studio hosted lawmaker Serhiy Holovatyi and independent journalist Iryna Pohorelova during the program. The program was moderated by Oleksa Boyarko in Prague.
Boyarko: Mr. Melnychenko, 10 days ago you touched upon last spring's plan in the Ukrainian president's office "to destroy Viktor Yuschenko," according to Leonid Kuchma's words you quoted. This passage has stirred particular interest in the Ukrainian media, and not only in the media. What else can you say about how the prime minister's lot was discussed in the presidential office?
Melnychenko: The plan was discussed with the Donetsk Oblast chairman, and there were the words: "Yuschenko wants me to sack him. I will not sack him, I will destroy him once and for all." And then those steps were made to destroy Yuschenko politically.
Boyarko: Do your tapes not contain the information that the president subsequently gave up that plan?
Melnychenko: No, there is no such [recording]. There were time frames mentioned that he [Yuschenko] should work only until the end of 2000, while in the beginning of 2001 he should be replaced.
Boyarko: Replaced by whom, please?
Melnychenko: There were different names, one of the most ... Azarov, the head of Ukraine's Tax Administration.
Boyarko: Were there other names mentioned?
Melnychenko: This is not essential.
Boyarko: Mr. Melnychenko, the first tape, which was made public by Oleksander Moroz, mentions Radio Liberty. The point is that the situation around Radio Liberty is rather strange. Over a long time, we have been noticing the activity of special services around Radio Liberty. It is not connected only with the fact that you, Mr. Melnychenko, contacted us, it started earlier. Special services seek direct contacts with RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service employees. As people say, [the secret service] "sounded out" Service Director Roman Kupchinsky in the first place. A special service representative came to Prague for a "heart-to-heart" talk and openly said that the service is rather disliked by the presidential administration and personally the president. And he warned [Kupchinsky] that unless the tone of our programs changes, "softens," those at the top will make every effort to drive Radio Liberty out of Ukraine's broadcasting sphere ... Mr. Melnychenko, you have touched upon this issue, [haven't you]?
Melnychenko: I think I can clearly demonstrate to you the attitude of the president to Radio Liberty. I am switching on... [ed. note: a tape is being played] Could you hear?
Boyarko: The audibility was rather poor, could you retell [the recording] to our listeners?
Melnychenko: The president phones the committee responsible for frequencies and says: "Who is responsible for frequencies in your [committee]? This committee ... Tell me, how much do the BBC and Radio Liberty pay for using our frequencies compared to world [prices]? Prepare me an official memo. We need to bring pressure on them [expletives], don't we?" These were President Kuchma's words.
Pohorelova: ...[Some believe] that following your [December 29] interview with Radio Liberty, or even before it, you were found by representatives of the Security Service of Ukraine and they set some conditions for you, and you complied with them. But later you changed your mind and had the interview with Radio Liberty, and therefore a criminal case was opened against you [for slander]. Can you explain your reasons [for publicizing the tapes] in a detailed way? There is a comment in "Zerkalo nedeli" that you left [Ukraine] because of family circumstances...your child's illness. And that [this disease] is allegedly the reason for your step that you made against the state for money. ...Everybody in Ukraine wants to know who is behind you...
Melnychenko: I understood your question. My choice was prompted by my conscience. There are no political forces or oligarchs behind me. Why was a criminal case opened after the interview with Radio Liberty? I have not had any particular contacts with the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU), but I have information that many people have been sent and large sums allocated to find and prevent me from entering Ukraine. Following that interview where I said "yes, I'm coming back to Ukraine," and some time frames were determined, a criminal case was opened to prevent me from coming and becoming a witness.
Boyarko: Mr. Holovatyi, do you support Mykola Melnychenko's intention to come back to Ukraine in the near future? Will this [return] produce any results, and is it realistic?
Holovatyi: I would not like Mr. Melnychenko to come back to Ukraine right now, because there is a system in Ukraine for destroying people who tell the truth. Mr. Melnychenko belongs to those who made public the truth about Kuchma, [Internal Affairs Minister Yurii] Kravchenko, [SBU chief Leonid] Derkach, and other criminals, about [Procurator General Mykhailo] Potebenko, who is a collaborator in crimes in Ukraine. Therefore, after Mr. Melnychenko appears in Ukraine, they will put him into a solitary confinement cell, break his limbs, put out his eyes, or skin him, as they skinned the body they found near Tarashcha... [Ed. note: according to genetic tests, Gongadze's body with a probability of 99.6 percent.]
Boyarko: We tried to contact politicians in the Verkhovna Rada who are [Kuchma's] supporters. ... Our correspondent Maya Nahorniak spoke with Kateryna Vaschuk, a representative of the pro-presidential caucus Revival of Regions.
Vashchuk: (from a tape): Why should we believe Melnychenko unambiguously and disbelieve the president? Why should we disbelieve the law enforcement bodies today? ... I was in the president's office three times during that period [covered by Melnychenko's recordings]. During the three visits I discussed problems of the agrarian sector. Let [Melnychenko] give me an excerpt of my conversations if it was recorded. I will know then if his tape is authentic ...
Melnychenko: I have recordings of conversations of Ms. Vaschuk with the president, and I would like to ask the [parliamentary] committee and Mr. Holovatyi [to attest] the authenticity [of those recordings]. If Kateryna Vashchuk agrees - do you understand what I'm saying? - to take a sample of the president's voice from his conversations with Kateryna Vaschuk. ... Let Kateryna Vaschuk listen to her conversations and say "yes, this is my voice, and this is the president's." And then let the commission [headed by Oleksander] Lavrynovych take this sample of the president's voice and compare it with the sample where he gave instructions [to get rid of Gongadze]. I propose this way ...
Boyarko: Very well, then Kateryna Vaschuk can become a witness in this case.
Melnychenko: Not only Kateryna Vashchuk. Dozens of people who were within the last year in the president's office can become witnesses. ... There were a lot of people's deputies in the president's office, journalists who were there and now present themselves in public as Gongadze's friends... [Lawmaker] Taras Chornovil can confirm [my words]. ... He was in the president's office. ... They discussed political issues about Rukh, about the split and unification of Rukh...
[Ed. note: In a statement sent to RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service, Taras Chornovil confirmed that he discussed the above-mentioned issues with Kuchma in the latter's office.]
Boyarko: As you know, Mr. Melnychenko, the Procurator General's Office has [recently] opened a case against Vice Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko. Do you have recordings confirming that this [case] was planned earlier?
Melnychenko: Yes, I have. I can also prove that this [case] was fabricated to make Yuschenko do what Kuchma needs. This is a peculiar sort of blackmail and pressure on Yuschenko. There are recordings [documenting] how that was being handled, worked out, and why that was done...
Boyarko: Excuse me, Mr. Melnychenko, but don't you have Kuchma's conversations with Putin?
Melnychenko: This is a state secret that I cannot reveal.
CONCLUSION
Copyright © The Ukrainian Weekly, February 11, 2001, No. 6, Vol. LXIX
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