INTERVIEW
President Kuchma speaks with RFE/RL correspondent
Below is the conclusion of a live telephone interview given by President Leonid Kuchma of Ukraine to RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service on April 3. Part I was published in the previous issue.
Q: Leonid Danylovych, don't you think there is a tiny chance that Heorhiy Gongadze is alive?
A: I have always believed in this chance. I'd like this chance to be a reality, I give you my word of honor. You know, I was glad when [lawmaker Serhii] Holovatyi made public the results of German genetic tests saying that [the tested samples] were not from Gongadze's body. God willing, this may be true, there have already been [similar] examples. It was reported by our neighbors that a person disappeared and was found later. (Ed. note: Possibly, Kuchma's referring to the disappearance of former National Bank Chairwoman Tamara Vinnikava in Belarus, who subsequently emerged in Great Britain.) God willing, this may be true, then a lot of problems could be resolved.
Q: And what, in your opinion, must be specifically done in the Gongadze case in order to unravel this mystery?
A: First and foremost, it is necessary to stop speculating on the Gongadze case. You know, there have actually been a lot of mysteries since the first day. I don't want to dwell on them, journalists dwell on them in their investigations very often.
As regards the authorities. ... You know that we have invited FBI [experts]; some independent groups from Russia are also working in Ukraine. We are fully open, you're welcome, let's investigate the case together instead of doing what we have done thus far: blackmailing; psychological warfare against Ukraine, against the state. The point is not [personally] with Kuchma - you should realize that - but with the president of a country, and with Ukraine herself. Many do not want to understand that.
Q: But do you have specific grounds to believe that there is a chance that Gongadze is alive?
A: In general, as long as the tests are inconclusive, hope is the last to die. I always proceed from this [premise].
Q: This is grounded only in your feelings, not in some specific. ...
A: I have no grounds [to believe otherwise]. When Russian expert Ivanov announced that there is a 99 [percent of certitude that the body found is Gongadze's], I said I'm a man who deals with certitudes, therefore I cannot doubt [Ivanov's finding, I cannot assume] that such an expert as Ivanov may resort to a falsification. Because this is [his] professional domain, in which he will never allow himself to act against his ethics.
I have begun [to think that Gongadze may be alive] after some people told investigators in Lviv, Vinnytsia, [and] the Volyn region that they saw him after [his disappearance]. Particularly since those statements were made by people who studied with him. Were those statements deliberately [falsified], or what? Up until now they have not withdrawn [their statements]. Second, the German experts questioned [the identity of the discovered corpse]. God willing, [Gongadze may be alive]. Let's hope for something anyway.
Q: Has the tape case brought anything positive to you personally?
A: The positive thing is that I've seen who is who. I've seen people who work with me, not only in my closest entourage. First of all, those on Pechersky Pahorby where the offices of the government, the Parliament and the presidential administration are located.
Q: Does this mean that the case somewhat helped you to introduce order in the realm of presidential security?
A: No, I've never placed my security above all other issues. I've never paid any attention to that. The protection service of the Ukrainian president is perhaps the least numerous not only in Europe but also in the post-Soviet area. It is not I who should handle [my own] protection. There is a service that should protect and be accountable. They handled it badly, and I fired the head of the state protection service. This was made [not for the sake of showing my authority], this was an example that one needs to carry out one's duties conscientiously.
Q: Did you plan to oust [former Security Service head Leonid] Derkach and [former Internal Affairs Minister Yurii] Kravchenko, or was [their sacking] the result of some emergency situation in Ukraine? Are they responsible for what happened?
A: The Security Service is responsible for that. It is unambiguous.
Responsible for what?
A: For what. ... If such things take place. ... This is state security, this is national security, [Melnychenko's deed was] practically at the level of [state] treason, at the level of spying. I do not accuse Maj. [Mykola] Melnychenko, or former major, to be exact. I do not accuse [him], I [only] say that these are traits [of his anti-state activities]. These traits should be evaluated in court. But that was a concern of the Security Service. If the president feels discomfort in this issue, then the Security Service failed in its role, didn't it? That was their duty. If the president was eavesdropped on in actual fact, then was that not a concern of the Security Service?
Q: Apart from Melnychenko, was anybody else eavesdropping on you in your office?
A: I don't know of anybody else. I have great doubts that it was Melnychenko who eavesdropped [on me]. In my view, Melnychenko was a tool who was used and subsequently thrown out, that's all.
Q: Mr. President, I simply couldn't believe when I read an announcement that Mr. [Volodymyr] Radchenko, head of the Security Service of Ukraine, is willing to meet with Melnychenko. Is this true?
A: And why not? I said on several occasions that we guarantee Melnychenko's security and that he may come back, but he will be held accountable under Ukrainian law. But if [Radchenko] is willing to meet with Melnychenko, let them meet.
Q: Incidentally, are you willing to meet with Melnychenko?
A: No. I only want to look in his eyes, because I don't remember him. To look in his eyes [to see] how they avoid looking in mine. I do not treat such people as humans. You know how he should be called.
Q: By the way, he claims that he swore allegiance not to the president but to Ukraine.
A: Do not oversimplify. Who swears allegiance personally to President Kuchma? He swore to Ukraine. There is a law. Who swears allegiance to [U.S.] President [George] Bush? There is a law on state protection, and clear-cut duties are written down in it.
Q: Derkach and Kravchenko quit the government, or more precisely, you helped them quit. Are you planning further replacements? There are many rumors in Ukraine that Prime Minister Viktor Yuschenko, [presidential staff head Volodymyr] Lytvyn, [State Tax Administration Chairman Mykola] Azarov, and [Procurator General Mykhailo] Potebenko will quit in the same way. The list is very long.
A: The opposition proposes [its own] list: everybody should quit, the opposition should remain. But I want to ask the opposition: Is it only power that you want? And where is your program of what you want [to do]?
I announced more than once that I'm not going to dismiss Yuschenko. If I had wanted, I would have done this long ago. As for replacements, you know the way Cabinet changes are made: the prime minister makes proposals, we confer on them, then we make decisions. In this way, the minister of fuel and energy was recently replaced.
Surely, there will be replacements in the future as well. But this is a process, a sort of creative process. Some [officials] are unable to cope with what they have to cope with, others see that they are unfit for their jobs and quit the government of their own will. This is a permanent process, even though the change of personnel does not contribute to stability in both politics and economy.
Q: Regarding [former Vice Prime Minister] Yulia Tymoshenko. Only one aspect. Can you imagine a woman ruling the Ukrainian state?
A: In the near future - no. I proceed from the mentality of Ukrainians. Look at statistics: the attempts of women's parties to win parliamentary seats have failed everywhere. Therefore, I rule out such [a development] for the time being. There is no woman at the Olympus [of Ukrainian politics] who could draw attention to herself with something positive, constructive, with her work, devotion to Ukraine, and not with her own interests.
Q: Mr. President, what foreign trips are you planning? I ask because there is an opinion that many Western countries have closed their doors to you. Your opponents claim that you personally are in isolation.
A: Absolute nonsense. First, I have [taken] many trips in Ukraine. In June I am to be in Italy at a gathering of the Central European Initiative countries, in Naples. And in the near future - there is a meeting of countries of the Black Sea region in Romania.
Q: Leonid Danylovych, are you planning a trip to the United States?
A: You know, I don't plan trips to the U.S., it is the U.S. that plans those meetings. I don't think Ukraine is a top priority for the new U.S. administration. But the foreign minister has already paid a visit there. The defense minister is also scheduled to visit the U.S. There is an absolutely normal dialogue under way.
Q: One more issue, Leonid Danylovych - while taking advantage of your forbearance with us - an important issue ...
A: I see that you want to do away with me on the birthday of my grandson. (Ed. note: Kuchma addresses the interviewer in second person singular, which is fairly informal, if not unkind, in the Ukrainian language on such occasions.)
Q: No, no, I don't want to...
A: I will call you on the birthday of my granddaughter. (Ed. note: Again, the address is in second person singular.)
Q: This is a very important issue: Russia and Ukraine. Your opponents voice fears that. ...
A: And why don't you listen to my supporters, why do you interview only my opponents? My supporters - I want to stress that - outnumber my opponents by thousands to one. Now let us look at who my opponents are. All of them have been asked [previously] to leave the government: ministers, vice prime ministers, and so on.
Q: Leonid Danylovych, you may not believe it, but your supporters do not come to Radio Liberty for some reason, they are either afraid or ignore [the station]. Let them come, and we will gladly listen to them.
A: All of them will come.
Q: We will listen to them with satisfaction.
A: I'm speaking seriously. Here is my press secretary sitting beside me, I'll instruct him to get in touch with you. Tell him whom he has to contact, a dialogue will be established without fail.
Q: Very well. Thank you. We are taking you at your word. We will be reminding Mr. [Oleksander] Martynenko (Ed. note: Kuchma's press secretary), Mr. Lytvyn, [Vice-Chairman of Parliament Viktor] Medvedchuk, and everybody else that you urged to come to Radio Liberty.
A: You're welcome.
Q: Thank you.
A: I will instruct Lytvyn today, as to Medvedchuk, I can only ask him, because he is from a different power branch.
Q: Still, I have a question. [Some] opponents say Ukraine is losing its independence. Some even claim that you are personally pushing Ukraine into Russia's embrace. Could you say a few words about this?
A: I can say this is absolutely untrue. Untrue, as regards the loss of independence. I'm convinced today that [Russian President Vladimir] Putin is not pursuing the goal of subordinating Ukraine to himself. They cannot manage it [even] with Belarus, because of economic reasons. Besides, let us put things in their places.
Why should Ukraine - in whose trade turnover Russia's share has fallen to 40 or 39 percent - reject this [cooperation with Russia]? So why does all of Europe want to cooperate with Russia? Tell me, please.
I will tell you. Because both Ukraine and Europe are consuming Russian gas, without which we cannot manage. Russian oil, other Russian raw resources. Moreover, [Russia] for Ukraine means a market [for Ukrainian products]. What, are we allowed into Europe [with our products]? Europe is closed for us. So, we should leave Russia. And go where? If one thinks seriously, if one is a serious politician, one cannot put this question in this way.
National interests lie exactly in this. The EU countries are taking exactly the same positions, believe me. Ukraine should have good relations with Russia [for the sake of] regional security, European security and, in general, stability on the European continent. All of us are interested in a stable Russia, all of us without exception, including Europe. So let us proceed from this. I think we will not come back to the Cold War era, even though the EU borders are advancing on us, so to say, every day. Therefore, it is necessary today to realize [the need for] cooperation.
Q: Mr. President, let us return to the cassette case. As a conclusion, could you say a few words about the authenticity of those cassettes?
A: I will put it in the simplest way. Give me, please, original cassettes. I have no more questions. Give me original cassettes, then I will make conclusions, then conclusions will be made by the organs that can make them. By those that made conclusions regarding the first cassette, where everything was doctored. You know, I haven't listened to the cassettes, and I'm not going to listen to them. Because I said this was a provocation from the very beginning, this is the position I took and will stick to it.
I repeat once again: the material on the first tapes, which were made public in the Parliament by Moroz, is a gross falsification, an absolute one. Unfortunately, [those recordings] do not include a lot of interesting issues that were discussed in my office and that I can recall. Or conversations with the head of the Verkhovna Rada, with the head of the government and so on. I have doubts all the time as to what is on those cassettes. Besides, I will say once again that Maj. Melnychenko was incapable of taping all that is publicized today. There are some powerful forces that had the possibility to tape that. But again, let us look at the original tapes.
Q: Mr. President, I'd like to thank you for your interview. [As well as] for your consent and the time you devoted to meet with us. And I congratulate your grandson [on his birthday]. I congratulate you and your family. My best wishes.
A: I'd like to add something as a conclusion. I'm always ready for a dialogue. If some problematic questions appear, I'm ready to give an interview on any topic to any broadcaster, either by the phone or to a journalist beside me. And to answer frankly questions about the events that are taking place, to present my opinion on these events. I think [that following such interviews] there will be much more understanding between the Ukrainian authorities and Radio Liberty, and this means that we will have a broader view in the future.
Q: We sincerely support your idea. Our people from the Kyiv bureau [of RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service] will quite soon contact you, so do not turn them away.
A: Agreed, I will not turn them away. I'm instructing my press secretary [in this regard].
CONCLUSION
Copyright © The Ukrainian Weekly, April 22, 2001, No. 16, Vol. LXIX
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