THE TENTH ANNIVERSARY OF UKRAINE'S INDEPENDENCE

INTERVIEWS: Ukrainians in Kyiv comment on Ukraine today

by Fran Ponomarenko

Frania Ponomarenko teaches in the English Department at Vanier College, Montreal. She is also a writer of fiction and has published short stories in various journals, as well as a collection titled "The Parcel From Chicken Street and Other Stories." She taught advanced English in Kyiv during the month of July for Prosvita through the Ukrainian National Association's English Teachers for Ukraine Project.

She writes: On July 30, just prior to departing from Kyiv, I went to the Prosvita office on Museum Lane in order to bid farewell to some of the fine people that I had met during the month I spent in the Ukrainian capital teaching English. Folks there said that it was a pity that I was returning to Canada before the 10th anniversary celebrations. And that was when I asked those who were present - Halyna Tarasiuk, Natalia Skrynnyk and Roxana Fortunska - what they thought the 10 years had concretely brought for Ukraine.

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Halyna Tarasiuk, a well-known Ukrainian writer, journalist and community activist, has published many volumes of poetry and prose fiction. Her works have been translated into German, Italian, Romanian, Russian, Spanish, Latvian and Polish. She was born on the October 26, 1948, in the village of Orlivka, in Vinnytsia Oblast. She also works as a writer and editor for the Kyiv-based newspaper Slovo Prosvity.

Q: We are now commemorating the 10th anniversary of the restoration of Ukraine's independence. What are the major things that you think have been accomplished?

A: On the political level, Europe has at last recognized us as an independent country. Ukraine was always presumed to be some kind of southern territory of Russia. So, I think that we have accomplished much. Some of the problems that we have is that we continue to suffer from the aftermath of Chornobyl, we are hampered by a certain amount of corruption, as well as the mafia.

This is extremely painful because we, the Ukrainian nation, are a people of great achievements, of great culture. We have a wonderful folklore, which people know about, but we also have great literature, sophisticated art and a strong cinematographic tradition, and we would like the rest of the world to know us for this, to know that we are a creative original nation with lots of potential and talent.

Q: In your view, what are the most pressing problems now?

A: The government says that the economy should be the priority, and this is the conception that is being propagated. And yet nothing is being done on that front. In reality the economy has collapsed. No one is doing anything so that we can have our own economic development. The Ukrainian government may say the economy is the priority but it doesn't really care about the development of it.

Q: What is happening in the area of culture?

A: Everything is being done so that our culture does not develop. There are no programes for the advancement of culture, no financing arrangements for the arts, and even publishing has totally fallen apart. Here, too, the government is not interested in developing this area.

Neither are there any laws in place which would encourage patronage of the arts. Rich people here do not originate from the nationally conscious sectors of society. They don't care about the arts and their development. It will take time for them to acquire an interest in culture. In truth, though lip service is paid about a focus on the economy, neither the economy nor culture are attended to.

Q: All this is rather troubling.

A: Yes, we feel like people who live on a reservation, because the politicians and the president have not thought things out.

Q: Can you comment on the present sentiment of Russians toward independent Ukraine?

A: As for the Russians, well, they cannot seem to accept an independent Ukraine. In the 1960s the Russian elite did support the national awakening in Ukraine, but when Ukraine actually became independent, the Russians began to feel offended (obrazheni). The elder brother complex and a history of imperial ideology is so strong amongst the Russians that they just feel insulted.

I am not speaking only of the Russian government here, but even the Russian intelligentsia wants Ukraine to go back to being a part of Russia. These intellectuals should understand what national feeling and pride are, but they have no sympathy for Ukrainian independence. They look at Ukrainians from the vantage point of imperial superiority.

Q: The Third World Forum of Ukrainians is about to take place. What do you see coming out of it?

A: Ukrainian intellectuals don't have much hope that anything will emerge. Previous forums were not consolidating and the Ukrainian ideal was not realized as a result of them. All kinds of resolutions and decisions are taken but these are not taken up and implemented by the government.

The process of denationalization is operating from all sides, from Russia, which is not interested in the national idea, and from the West, too. Neither is there any support for this idea in the Ukrainian government, as laws that were connected to this are not being adhered to.

Q: One rarely hears Ukrainian in Kyiv. What is the present situation with regard to the Ukrainian language?

A: Between 1991 and 1993, on that initial wave of early independence, strange things occurred: no one was antagonistic to the Ukrainian language. All kinds of people used it, children, intellectuals, even though it may have been hard for them. The law on the use of the Ukrainian language originated with the government and there was no feeling that any pain was connected to this issue. All sorts of people readily accepted that they were in Ukraine and, therefore, it was normal to speak Ukrainian. And we all felt that was how it should be.

Today all this has changed. We didn't even realize when the main publishing houses found themselves without any financing whatsoever. The book market is bombarded with Russian books. In fact, even romance novels, which are very popular, are written by Russians. They sometimes adopt Anglo-Saxon pseudonyms to make it look like the books come from the West, but these books are written and produced in Russia and they are sent here en masse.

There is only one television station which is Ukrainian. It is a state television station and it works for the present government. It does not promulgate a Ukrainian spirit. All other television programs are in Russian and the films that are aired are either Russian or American.

The television industry is very strong in Russia. We Ukrainians now look very provincial compared to what they are accomplishing in Russia. We have no wealthy nationally conscious people who would support a Ukrainian television industry. The television industry here is in the hands of people who are ready enough to accept the idea of a Ukrainian territory, but not one that is really Ukrainian.

The Ukrainian film studios have been destroyed, too, and the famous Dovzhenko Studio is not functioning, neither is Ukrtelefim, nor Ukrnaukfilm. These large buildings have now been rented out to businesses. And there is no money available to make a film, say about the UPA, or even about the 10 years of independence. The Ministry of Culture says it has no money. And many film directors are now begging for their bread. Russian films, in the meantime, are shown here continuously.

Also, many theaters in the various oblasts no longer operate and that is because the oblast cultural divisions are unable to provide money to support them. Many of our actors are presently working in Italy and Greece.

The same applies to Ukrainian newspapers. These are not supported by the state or by Ukrainian intellectuals, and there is at the present time no rich Ukrainian-oriented elite. The oligarchs are connected to Russia, Israel, and other countries, and they have no interest in the national question.

Q: Would it be fair to suggest then that the cultural elite is, for the time being, unable to flourish as it should?

A: Yes, in 10 years all was done to destroy the creative Ukrainian elite. How was this done? By creating a situation where they have become beggars. A writer may produce a novel, but good work is not financially supported. Few films are released in the Ukrainian language. As for the fine arts, well, a few artists have been able to sell their works. But on the whole, all this means that Ukraine is becoming provincial.

And everything is being done to make us look provincial too, and a mentality is being formed in which people do not respect the Ukrainian national idea.

President Kuchma himself said that the national idea has not worked. The implications of this statement are obvious. Now the government will work otherwise. What will Ukraine become? Some kind of conglomerate? And united to what?

Q: How does the future look then for the Ukrainian language and Ukrainian nation?

A: It's sad. One thing left that we can be happy about is that I believe there is an indestructible force - the spirit of the Ukrainian nation - and that no matter what our situation, whether it was under Peter I, or the Ems Ukaz, the Ukrainian nation was not destroyed. Fate may take us on a different road now, but it will not destroy the Ukrainian nation. And it may flourish one day.

Unfortunately, I don't see much hope in the younger generation. The young people have become denationalized in the last five years. They live in a world of Russian films and Russian books and they consider all this normal. Who knows what will happen? This is all deeply painful. For the moment we are in a period of stagnation.

Why did God punish us Ukrainians? Why is it that when you speak Ukrainian, other people think there is something wrong with you? Apparently, you feel uncomfortable speaking your native language. The social factor is always present. The majority speak Russian, so why not you? So you have a situation where you are living in our own land and yet you feel like a stranger. In a sense, the same old Soviet mentality is just continuing.

Q: What role do you see for the diaspora in these times?

A: There is one small hope and that is that the diaspora should not be blinded by the idea that there is a Ukraine on the map. The diaspora should work the same way it once did, and that is to tell the truth, to speak the truth about what is happening in Ukraine: that denationalization is taking place, that there is a chauvinist onslaught, and cultural development is ignored.

I would say to them: do not be blinded by the awards that you are given, or that you are called to meet with the president. Speaking the truth will be a great support for us, even more valuable than monetary gifts. Ukrainian organizations in the West should help their governments know the truth.

Q: In this kind of situation, whom do you think the diaspora ought to work with here in Ukraine?

A: Of course, it was perfectly natural to work with politicians, initially, because nation-building was crucial. Today, however, we need financial help in order to effect a spiritual rebirth. We need help in producing films, and publishing books that are historical and contemporary. Ukrainian books need to be translated into other languages, and I mean literature aside from [Oksana] Zabuzhko and [Yuriy] Andrukhovych, because there is a real Ukrainian literature. There are literary fighters like Anna Halya Horbach who is presently living in Germany.

When humanitarian help is given, it is best not to direct it to an organization or a party, but to a person whom one wants to help and whose project one is familiar. It's common knowledge that during the first years of [Leonid] Kravchuk's reign the state organized specific individuals to work with the diaspora. It is best to work with people directly, and this way one can avoid corruption.

Presently, Ukrainians live with a continuous feeling of apocalypse, and almost everyone wants to settle their children elsewhere. Chornobyl was the first sign, the precursor, first a material and physical catastrophe, and now there is a spiritual Chornobyl. People just want to grab anything, want to go to the West. But others are connected to Ukraine and need assistance. And this sense of apocalypse is accompanied by a refutation of Taras Shevchenko, and works turn up designating the great poet to be a pervert, and I believe that these attacks on our heritage will continue, and we will see attacks on Lesia Ukrainka, too. These are, in fact, meant to be understood as attacks on Ukrainians.

Who is doing this? Russia is paying for this kind of libel. At the moment there are no great works being written about Shevchenko. In my opinion, the only way to beat these problems is to produce brilliant work. I think it might be a good idea to set up competitions for the best novel, this could be done from the diaspora. Before there were stipends for artists, now there are virtually no financial awards.

Q: What is your view of the changes in village life and the dismantling of the kolhosps?

A: I think it was a big mistake to undo the kolhosps. Of course, we know of the great price it cost Ukrainians to set them up, and the great sacrifice that went into constructing them initially. But the kolhosp system became part of the mentality here, and people worked and managed somehow, and under a good kolhosp leader things became better. It wasn't ideal by any means, but it did get to the point where it worked. Now all the changes are sudden, once again. Just as collectivization took place with lightning speed now the collapse is taking place at the same pace. People are often seen crying saying: "Will we be working for the rich?"

The present changes have given the heads of the kolhosp the possibility to steal, to slaughter and sell the animals, to sell kolhosp technology and equipment. The people have been left totally at their own mercy. They have no horses of their own, no plows, no farm equipment, no tractors, no combines to work in the fields. So, the old heads of the kolhosps and the kolhosp economists simply said: "Sell us your 'paji' (plots of land)." The Ukrainian villagers had no option but to sell the strips of land that were allocated to them or to rent them out to the new managers or owners, and they get very little in return for this.

The peasants are in a catastrophic state, and survive entirely from their gardens. Many old kolhosp farms are empty with wolves as their only visitors. Many of the kolhosp tractors have been taken apart and out of the pieces one often sees all sorts of little pulleys that people have made in order to transport things. Killings even occurred when the division of lands started. Some people got poor quality sections of land, and murders occurred. The press does not write about this. The villagers live in primative conditions, and they have no money, but have to pay taxes. The Ukrainian farm worker has become a slave, without pride. But no newspaper is interested in the conditions of those people.

Q: A census took place in the countryside last year, didn't it?

A: Yes, in 2000, census takers went to ask every villager in the countryside what they had and what they owned. Some people hid their animals. Detailed questions and information was requested, such as how many chickens do you own, and so on. Officially, they said the reason was to determine the increase in prosperity, but the real reason is to establish a basis upon which to tax people on what they have.

Q: What are the effects of this economic upheaval on children?

A: In the villages the schools are backward and so these children do not have much of chance to compete with a city child for placement in schools of higher learning. Consequently, these children just remain in the villages and work there. Also, the inability to earn an income has forced many women to go to Italy and Greece, before it used to be Poland. Thus, they are forced to leave their children alone with their fathers.

When Ukrainians go abroad, they do not always go as legal workers, and so they often find themselves demeaned and humiliated once again. If they come into contact with good people, and this happens, too, because there are good people everywhere, then they are helped.

But this situation has meant that many children who have been left at home simply do not go to school. In Bukovyna alone, 1000 children did not go to school. And this is an official figure, and therefore the numbers must be considerably higher.

Q: What do the folks who used to work in factories, which are now empty, do to earn a few hryvni?

A: They work elsewhere; they are hired by the owners of the little booths in the markets, and they sell clothes from other countries, like China or Turkey. Few Ukrainian goods are sold in Ukraine now. In fact, some kolhosps skin the animals and then send the hides to Turkey where leather goods are made, some of them come back to be sold in Ukraine.

Q: Problems of this intensity are material for social novels. What is happening in this area?

A: Yes, indeed. But our writers do not write about real problems, and the pressing issues are not addressed in literature. There is no social literature looking at these issues. It's as if there were no problems. But I believe that the sun will rise, no matter how long the night.

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Natalia Skrynnyk is the director of the language programes for Prosvita, both English and Ukrainian. She also coordinates cultural programes.

Q: What are, in your view, some of the positive accomplishments after ten years of Ukrainian independence?

A: Our children have started to think differently, and have fewer complexes than we do. They are also smarter than we are. Kyiv has become more beautiful. Money has been poured into reconstruction and building. There are lots of stores and new supermarkets, which we only saw in films from time to time and fantasized about. Now we have everything.

The question one can ask is: Is it a positive or a negative that some people are able to make so much money? Before we were more equal, even though our abilities were different. We wore the same clothes and ate the same food. We were equal but now there are more possibilities to make money. If you are smart and have a commercial streak, you can do well.

Q: And what negatives have emerged in the 10 years?

A: The pensioners are in bad straits because they are very poor. If their children do not give them money, they are truly badly off. Also, a fine education requires money and so few children have the opportunity to study in good lycées and universities.

As for the state of the Ukrainian language, things are worse and yet it should be the reverse. At the beginning of independence there was marked improvement but now things are reversing. The directors of many institutions are in fact the old ones, and they see that they can keep their old jobs, so they speak Russian. The same people have just remained in their old positions. Initially, they thought they would have to change in order to keep their jobs, but now they see they don't.

The language issue should be addressed in the family, and that's where the learning should begin. Perhaps our children will change things. But it is still unclear if anyone better will come to power.

The unemployment due to factory closures is also a serious matter and I would like the factories to work so that people could have jobs. But almost all the factories have ceased operating.

Q: So, what do people live on?

A: If they have relatives in villages they can usually grow some food there. Often they are unable to pay their electricity bills and these are left unpaid.

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Roxana Fortunska is a 20-year-old university student. She is in her fourth year of studies at the faculty of philology, Drahomanov Pedagogical University in Kyiv. She was employed by Prosvita this summer, as an assistant to Natalia Skrynnk.

Q: You're a young person, and so I'll ask you the question. Why do you think that Ukrainian is rarely heard in the streets of Kyiv?

A: Most people do not know Ukrainian; they think in Russian. As for the young people, they think that it is prestigious to speak Russian. Lots of the music here comes from Russia. Even those who can't speak Russian properly speak a kind of surzhyk. Ukrainian pride does manifest itself but it's usually only when a athlete wins a medal. On a daily basis everyone just speaks Russian. And you rarely hear Ukrainian music in the cafés.

Another reason for this use of Russian is the long years of ethnic mixture. I have some Polish blood, for instance. My great-great-grandmother was a Branitski, a Polish noblewoman who came to Kamianets Podilskyji and assimilated. And I feel a love for Poland. But I consider myself to be Ukrainian even though I have a Polish name.

Q: What do you think would make the Ukrainian language prestigious?

A: If all the government people used it. If famous stars and artists, particularly young ones, who are idols, spoke Ukrainian and didn't use Russian. That would go a long way to changing things. Also, the mass media would need to be in Ukrainian. But this is not the case.

Q: I noticed quite a bit of American influence here.

A: Yes, there is a great American influence here, too. Advertisements come from the United States. And the American dream has penetrated our consciousness too, and everyone aspires to that dream.

Q: So how does the future look to you?

A: I do not believe that things will be better in 10 years. The only solution is to learn foreign languages and to go abroad to work. Many young people have become degraded. I don't have the feeling that the politicians are interested in the future of Ukraine.

People don't have any sense of security. But you need hope. But, how can you have it if you are thinking about food all the time. So, people need economic security then they will be able to think about the national question. We need economic security.

Q: What language are the courses in your university taught in?

A: Well, the professor comes at the beginning of the course and asks the students what language they would like to be taught in. Then all the students shout: "In Russian!" And so the teaching goes on in Russian. Some professors just speak Ukrainian and don't ask the students. The older ones are more prone to ask which language to teach in.

Copyright © The Ukrainian Weekly, August 19, 2001, No. 33, Vol. LXIX

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